Omni Man vs Doomsday (animated versions)

[Sharpandpointies]

How fast is animated Red Rush?

On a picnic in the hills above the city with his significant other, she’s complaining about not getting his attention. She blinks. He has stopped a crime in the city and returned. She doesn’t notice.

Thanks!

For me that's waaaaaay above what Nolan has shown, unless he has some weird stuff in the show similar to that. Certainly nothing like what is shown in any of Nolan's fights.

Which means, to me, him grabbing Red Rush by the wrist is the usual speedster PIS for Red Rush. Or SMvsFL for Nolan, take your pick.

Mileage may vary!

[Captain Morgan]

Sharp's assessment on the speed is fair. Nolan is still faster than DD by that, though. He's also stronger and more durable and can fly. So.

Checking out the 30 second mark here. Nolan hits Mark in the chest so hard it send cracks up a mountain the two aren't even on. That's above the breaking glass and occasional crumbling building from Doomsday's fight.

[Nik Hasta]

If we're being completionist about speed feats, there's also this one:



Mark and Nolan catching a baseball thrown at such speeds that it circles the globe in a few seconds. Granted they know it's coming and suchlike but it is still travelling incredibly fast.

Comic actually had a better version in terms of feats where Mark moves out of position down to ground level, remembers the ball is coming and zips back you to catch it but that isn't canon here sadly.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Sharp's assessment on the speed is fair. Nolan is still faster than DD by that, though. He's also stronger and more durable and can fly. So.

Checking out the 30 second mark here. Nolan hits Mark in the chest so hard it send cracks up a mountain the two aren't even on. That's above the breaking glass and occasional crumbling building from Doomsday's fight.

I also got the distinct impression he wasn't going all out on him, either.

[TheUltimateTruth101]

If we're being completionist about speed feats, there's also this one:



Mark and Nolan catching a baseball thrown at such speeds that it circles the globe in a few seconds. Granted they know it's coming and suchlike but it is still travelling incredibly fast.

Comic actually had a better version in terms of feats where Mark moves out of position down to ground level, remembers the ball is coming and zips back you to catch it but that isn't canon here sadly.

This is a pretty mediocre feat tbh

"Escape velocity" is mach 30 or 7 miles per second, we can conclude that the ball was thrown at slower speeds than that otherwise it would of flown straight out of orbit

In the scene were Omni-man catches the ball, it takes at least 1 second for the ball to be visible to Nolan catching it. The furthest distance that we can see is roughly 3 miles, 3 miles in 1 second is mach 14, however mach 14 at 3 miles away is less impressive than mach 1 at 5 feet away. We know Nolan cannot react to a mach 1 projectile (Donald's shooting him in the face) from 5-10 feet away

And...as you said...they knew it was coming and thus were prepped to catch the ball

There are simply far too many consistencies and showings of Nolan having piss poor reaction and combat speed, even though I believe he will beat Doomsday here now he certainly doesn't have any speed advantage here.

[TheUltimateTruth101]

This was edited in while I was posting, I guess.

I don't view Mark or Nolan's flight speed as any indication of superspeed reflexes or so forth. On Rumbles, we tend to differentiate travel speed from combat speed, with some specific exceptions (someone superspeed running through a forest, for example, is going to require some fantastic reflexes).

I don't actually see ANY superspeed reflexes or whatever from Mark in the fight.

The only clear superspeed reflexes etc I see is at 2:35 to 2:45, from Nolan. It's not exactly awesome superspeed, but it's there.

Here's a perfect example that can apply to Nolan

thor slow.jpgthor slow.jpg

Thor is someone who can fly FTL, across galaxies etc

However in a fight he's slower than Wolverine who's easily able to dance around him Thor while Thor throws sluggish haymakers and swings his hammer around and is easy to avoid

Nolan (at least the Amazon version) would be Thor

With the Red Rush thing, Nolan was shown to be 1) fast enough to track Red Rush's punches such that he discovered the pattern 2) fast enough to grab a guy blatantly trying to blitz him before the next punch connects.

Might he a PIS moment, might not.

This scene with Apocalpyse vs Quicksilver from that bad X-men movie from 2016 is a good example of Nolan and Red Rush, no where near fast as he is but can track him with his eyes



1:05 Nolan may be able to track Red Rush with his eyes and anticipate where he'd be coming from but doesn't have the reflexes and can't move his body fast enough to counter him

[Sharpandpointies]

Here's a perfect example that can apply to Nolan

Thor is someone who can fly FTL, across galaxies etc

However in a fight he's slower than Wolverine who's easily able to dance around him Thor while Thor throws sluggish haymakers and swings his hammer around and is easy to avoid

Nolan (at least the Amazon version) would be Thor

You're quoting me, but I've already explained Rumbles doesn't actually view flight speed/travel speed as combat speed except if very specific things are shown by that person in flight (for example, flying at mach 1000 through a forest without hitting any trees is going to require some pretty superhuman reflexes as well).

This scene with Apocalpyse vs Quicksilver from that bad X-men movie from 2016 is a good example of Nolan and Red Rush, no where near fast as he is but can track him with his eyes

1:05 Nolan may be able to track Red Rush with his eyes and anticipate where he'd be coming from but doesn't have the reflexes and can't move his body fast enough to counter him

Except Nolan can't track Red Rush with his eyes. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. In the animated show, it's very clear that Nolan is waaaaay behind Rush, to the point where he DOESN'T know which direction Rush is coming from, he's turning his head to search for him AFTER Rush has hit him and disappeared, and Nolan even catches Rush's hand blind, rather than being shown tracking him or anything (which makes zero sense, which is why I toss it out as a nice example of Spiderman versus Firelord, ie 'something that's waaaaay outside of Nolan's presentation/other feats and shouldn't be counted').

However, again, Nolan does have at least one good, explicit example demonstrating that he has some degree of 'combat speed/reflexes faster than normal' in the animated series, which I have mentioned above. When everything around Nolan is being shown moving in slo-motion, including stuff like spreading clouds of blood droplets, and Nolan is moving around perfectly normally, not appearing slowed down at all, then blurs away, that's a great example of him having a feat of combat speed/reflexes significantly faster than humanly possible. Or significantly faster than anything Doomsday explicitly shows in his own animated stuff.

Anyway, I don't have any skin in this game - I came here to discuss the feats, not who wins. *shrugs* Those are the feats - or lack thereof - as I see them.

Mileage may vary, and probably does.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

You're quoting me, but I've already explained Rumbles doesn't actually view flight speed/travel speed as combat speed except if very specific things are shown by that person in flight (for example, flying at mach 1000 through a forest without hitting any trees is going to require some pretty superhuman reflexes as well).



Except Nolan can't track Red Rush with his eyes. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. In the animated show, it's very clear that Nolan is waaaaay behind Rush, to the point where he DOESN'T know which direction Rush is coming from, he's turning his head to search for him AFTER Rush has hit him and disappeared, and Nolan even catches Rush's hand blind, rather than being shown tracking him or anything (which makes zero sense, which is why I toss it out as a nice example of Spiderman versus Firelord, ie 'something that's waaaaay outside of Nolan's presentation/other feats and shouldn't be counted').

However, again, Nolan does have at least one good, explicit example demonstrating that he has some degree of 'combat speed/reflexes faster than normal' in the animated series, which I have mentioned above. When everything around Nolan is being shown moving in slo-motion, including stuff like spreading clouds of blood droplets, and Nolan is moving around perfectly normally, not appearing slowed down at all, then blurs away, that's a great example of him having a feat of combat speed/reflexes significantly faster than humanly possible. Or significantly faster than anything Doomsday explicitly shows in his own animated stuff.

Anyway, I don't have any skin in this game - I came here to discuss the feats, not who wins. *shrugs* Those are the feats - or lack thereof - as I see them.

Mileage may vary, and probably does.

It should be noted too that that sequence with Red Rush happens, from the perspective of everyone else, faster than they can track/react to. What we're seeing or at the least what's implied as that we're seeing this from the perspective of Red Rush/Omni Man.

[Nik Hasta]

This is a pretty mediocre feat tbh

"Escape velocity" is mach 30 or 7 miles per second, we can conclude that the ball was thrown at slower speeds than that otherwise it would of flown straight out of orbit

In the scene were Omni-man catches the ball, it takes at least 1 second for the ball to be visible to Nolan catching it. The furthest distance that we can see is roughly 3 miles, 3 miles in 1 second is mach 14, however mach 14 at 3 miles away is less impressive than mach 1 at 5 feet away. We know Nolan cannot react to a mach 1 projectile (Donald's shooting him in the face) from 5-10 feet away

And...as you said...they knew it was coming and thus were prepped to catch the ball

There are simply far too many consistencies and showings of Nolan having piss poor reaction and combat speed, even though I believe he will beat Doomsday here now he certainly doesn't have any speed advantage here.

Your calculations here ignore the actual timeframe of the feat as it is shown on screen.

If the ball can only go at mach 30 max as you say then it would have taken over an hour to travel around the earth. When Nolan throws it, it travels around the planet in 19 secs which would put its speed at a little under Mach 6000. Mark appears to throws it a bit harder and it apparently goes around the world in six seconds albeit in montage so the timeframe might not be 1 to 1.

Still your number of Mach 30 is not really viable given what we physically see in the scene.

[TheUltimateTruth101]

Your calculations here ignore the actual timeframe of the feat as it is shown on screen.

If the ball can only go at mach 30 max as you say then it would have taken over an hour to travel around the earth. When Nolan throws it, it travels around the planet in 19 secs which would put its speed at a little under Mach 6000. Mark appears to throws it a bit harder and it apparently goes around the world in six seconds albeit in montage so the timeframe might not be 1 to 1.

Still your number of Mach 30 is not really viable given what we physically see in the scene.

Scenes don't always occur in a linear time frame ei a scene taking 19 seconds doesn't equate to events in the scene occurring in 19 seconds.

When Mark threw the ball, it could threw a bunch of different scenes ei it flew past a plane, flew through a mountain and likely lost a ton of momentum. We have no idea how long Nolan and Mark were standing (or flying) there after Mark threw the ball

Regardless we can disregard the overall time it took for the ball to circle the globe, here is what is absolutely indisputable

The farthest we can see is 3 miles away.

Omni Ball.jpg

The ball enters visible range (3 miles roughly) and takes 1 second roughly to land in Nolan's mitt

Nolan clearly moved his glove before the ball entered visible range, but even if he reacted after the ball was 3 miles away, this is roughly mach 14

So even if we assume that Mark threw the ball at mach 6000 its irrelevant because the ball lost so much momentum that by the time it circled back it was roughly mach 14

Reacting to something at mach 14 that's 3 miles away isn't impressive and would be consistent with Nolan being unable to react to a bullet from a dozen feet away

Even a regular human can react to a mach 1 projectile if it's 5 miles away because they'd roughly have 4-5 seconds to get out of the way. A regular human would be unable to react to a mach 1 projectile if it was fired from 20 feet away

[Sharpandpointies]

It should be noted too that that sequence with Red Rush happens, from the perspective of everyone else, faster than they can track/react to. What we're seeing or at the least what's implied as that we're seeing this from the perspective of Red Rush/Omni Man.

Is there actually a shot of everyone else being frozen and such?

Edit: went back and checked. When the Wonder Woman copy attacks Nolan, basically nobody does anything until Nolan flattens her. The same thing happens with Red Rush - he starts attacking, and nobody else does anything until Nolan has his hands on Rush. And at that point he's just squeezing. Everyone is shown to be in slow motion when Rush is getting squooshed, but I don't see any reason to give Nolan himself any superspeed based on that scene, due to squeezing being a constant pressure anyway; he's not doing anything super-fast while everyone but Rush is in slow motion.

That's how I see it anyway.

I figure that 2:40 or so in Nik's video of him fighting Mark has basically the only clear-cut superspeed thing Nolan does that I've seen thus far, and yeah, it's pretty clearly meant to be superspeed given Nolan acting at normal speed while everything around him is in slo-mo, then accelerating instantly to 'I disappear' speed...again, while everything is in slo-mo. A few seconds before that, he zips behind Mark - who can track that with his eyes, but otherwise is a statue - and has enough time to raise an eyebrow at normal speed before slamming Mark - still a statue - into the ground. That's pretty decent as well. Wish he had more stuff like that in his other fights.

[Nik Hasta]

Scenes don't always occur in a linear time frame ei a scene taking 19 seconds doesn't equate to events in the scene occurring in 19 seconds.

Nolan throws the ball and they have a conversation with no cutaways to the scene and then the ball arrives after 19 seconds. There's a very obvious timeframe and to claim otherwise just isn't true.

When Mark threw the ball, it could threw a bunch of different scenes ei it flew past a plane, flew through a mountain and likely lost a ton of momentum. We have no idea how long Nolan and Mark were standing (or flying) there after Mark threw the ball

I already said that the six second montage for Mark was probably not one-to-one but given the way that Nolan carries on the conversation he was just having it seems odd that he would wait the approximate hour or so you're implying it would take. Like we can't know /exact/ timeframes but it seems obvious that we can speculate that it was a short timeframe due to how the scene is directed and how the characters interact.

B]Regardless we can disregard the overall time it took for the ball to circle the globe, here is what is absolutely indisputable [/B]

Apart from in the case of Nolan's throw where we do have an exact timeframe.

The farthest we can see is 3 miles away.

Omni Ball.jpg

The ball enters visible range (3 miles roughly) and takes 1 second roughly to land in Nolan's mitt

Nolan clearly moved his glove before the ball entered visible range, but even if he reacted after the ball was 3 miles away, this is roughly mach 14

So even if we assume that Mark threw the ball at mach 6000 its irrelevant because the ball lost so much momentum that by the time it circled back it was roughly mach 14

Reacting to something at mach 14 that's 3 miles away isn't impressive and would be consistent with Nolan being unable to react to a bullet from a dozen feet away

Even a regular human can react to a mach 1 projectile if it's 5 miles away because they'd roughly have 4-5 seconds to get out of the way. A regular human would be unable to react to a mach 1 projectile if it was fired from 20 feet away

Okay so a couple of things on this.

1) A bit of googling says that human eyes can only, at most, perceive human scale objects up to two miles away rather than three. Also since the baseball has no inherent luminance, the ability for a human to perceive it at distance would likely be lower than that.

2) You're assuming that the animator has created an accurate representation of the vanishing point of two miles away, which is not necessarily true. As noted, I highly doubt you or I can see a baseball-sized object from two miles away even with completely clear line of sight. Omniman does not have any enhanced vision either so I'm unsure that you can specifically say that he saw it two miles away and reacted then. ​

3) Donald's gunshot that you reference was fired from like three feet away not several dozen, bullets don't hurt Omniman at all so there was no reason for him to take evasive action so it's not an indication of him not being capable of dodging. Same as when the first round of missiles were shot at him by the jet, he didn't bother to move but then he did dodge the second round.

4) Your maths is off as well; a Mach 1 projectile would take 27 seconds to cover 5 miles.

[Cody]

I don't think the baseball event is worth much as a feat tbh, as I see it similar to when someone catches an arrow in real life; in a controlled setting where they know it is coming, and are ready for it. Doesn't mean they are even close to its speed.

If these guys are around Thor's speed(sound/thunder), then they should be able to catch it while still not being close to its speed the same way a normal person catches an arrow.

[Jcogginsa]

Sometimes the show breaks physics.

See also the scene of Mark stopping that Meteor.

[Captain Morgan]

It does feel like a pretty notable strength feat though, especially as Mark pulls it off and he's chump change to his dad.