Which do you prefer Zack Snyder’s Justice League or Infinity War-Endgame?

[Castle]

So you are taking the Oscars as a measuring stick for artistic quality? How does that fit with your worshipping of Snyder, who never even came close to landing an Academy Award nomination so far and likely never will?

Funnily enough Joss Whedon is an Academy Award nominee.

.

You can use Oscars if you want, as long as the Oscars are not been influenced by their dumb politics, money, the Harvey Weinsteins of the world, instead they decide more on giving the Oscar to best student with the best work,

Joss is an oscar nominee but this is Joss from Buffy and Firefly not Joss in a Disney action comedy like the Avengers movies. If you look at many buffy episodes Hush, Restless and becoming. Joss deserves oscars or emmys Nomimations and wins as a writer and director. but Buffy/Firefly is not Avengers, they are in a much higher class by light years. MCU cannot replicate many Buffy story lines because it would be too dark or overcomplicated for them and the ironically, the Oscars usually loves dark and overcomplicated.

One must be in denial to make such a claim. Titanic, Avatar, hell even Gone With The Wind are far from being among the best movies ever made, yet they are and will be remembered because they were pop-cultural phenomenons of their respective time and same goes for the MCU. It's the most successful franchise of all time, of course it will stay in the collective memory as Star Wars or Lord of the Rings did.

Titanic, Avatar and Gone with End all had serious symbolic film achievements. People celebrate those films as a major important part of cinema, even the bad and the ugly side considering how dated Gone with the Wind is. MCU is more comparable to Fast and Furious or the Bad Boy series. to put MCU movies with Avatar, Gone with wind and titanic is laughable because this movies are part of serious cinema.

I dont know how anyone can compare James Cameron movies like Titanic and Avatar, movies known for James Cameron aggressive director only driven instinct and lone craft to the cooperate mass produced movies like IW/Endgame where directors dont even do much and the main point of them is to sell toys and open theme parks unlike James Cameron who is main goal is to let audiences step into a new age of film making. it makes no sense.

Snyder fans will likely view ZSJL as a cult classic for years to come but that doesn't mean a thing. There are people who label Ed Wood's movies as cult, but that doesn't mean they are good. So yeah, maybe ZSJL will be comparable to some of the shows mentioned in your link as to having a dedicated but rather small cult following and being obscure to the general public. That is totally different to Endgame which will keep its place in the collective memory whether you like the movie or not.

Well I have already said it. yes, it will be a cult classic, only difference is that it means a lot because the movie has changed how people can do a comic film. HBO is going to learn from that style.

By the way, a glaring exception among the shows in the link is Twin Peaks, which was an absolute landmark for TV and a true masterpiece, far above the other mentioned shows and everything Snyder has ever done.

I agree bout Twin Peaks, but also remember Twin Peaks and Snyder are still cut from the cloths, they follow their instinct to create their craft, which is what is the factor here of why directors or writers even exist and deserve to be taken seriously.

[Username taken]

If the Snyderverse films had likeable enough characters and consistent plots, they could be a bit longer. I watched 3 hrs of Endgame, in the theater, and that was good. But he needs to actually allow the characters to be likeable. I think he struggles with that a lot

That's what has made the MCU so successfully ultimately.

It's not so much about the action but the characters.

That's something that Snyder struggled with in his version of the DCU. Most of his characters aren't particularly likeable.

[Castle]

Yeah, i wonder if people had the option of choosing to watching ZSJL on HBO Max vs choosing to watch Black Widow or Eternals or Shang-Chi, i'm guessing the general public would choose any of the mcu films. Impossible to prove, of course, but the mcu has earned audience's trust in a way that the DC movies have not.

That said, i'm glad i had the chance to see ZSJL and thought it was reasonably good, certainly my favorite of Snyder's 3 DC movies. But its hard to imagine spending 4 hours watching it again in a year or two so that's another way in which it doesn't compare favorably to the mcu films, at least for me personally.

I don't think it is an option when it comes to any Disney related entertainment. Disney is going to surpass Netflix soon in subscribers but again I feel this is just more of a deflect as it has nothing to with any credible film or tv critique. Netflix on average are still producing higher quality shows and movies to Disney and will continue to do so.

Nothing wrong with watching stuff that is meant to appeal to the masses, but that has nothing to do with how intellectual or compelling or artistic cinema can be. I don't have to have seen Black Widows, Eternals or Shang Chi to already know they are not the next crouching tiger hidden dragon, Tron legacy or even Angelina's Jolie tomb raider. The Snyder Cut is actually a singularity of its own like those films I have mentioned.

[CosmiComic]

That's what has made the MCU so successfully ultimately.

It's not so much about the action but the characters.

That's something that Snyder struggled with in his version of the DCU. Most of his characters aren't particularly likeable.

Exactly. Snyder did an ok but bare bones job with Cyborg, and the rest are either too angry, just there, or barely there. How are we supposed to be invested in this? The non-Snyderverse DCEU movies are doing a way better job on that front

[Username taken]

Exactly. Snyder did an ok but bare bones job with Cyborg, and the rest are either too angry, just there, or barely there. How are we supposed to be invested in this? The non-Snyderverse DCEU movies are doing a way better job on that front

Agreed.

I like what he did with Cyborg but yeah, the other solo DCEU movies have done a better job with developing the individual characters.

[Castle]

Time wears all things down. As we've seen time and again, these things get forgotten as creators move on and shiny new stuff becomes the new focus.

If this was true, there would not be a word called Timeless or a phrase called standing the test of time Avatar as a visual film will stand the test of time, same with gone with wind? do you how ground-breaking it was for a 1939 film to be in color of that high standard? this was an era where black and white silent movies have yet to die out completely even others films in 1939 like Mr Smith Goes to Washington and Wizard of Oz were all ground-breaking movies that still is sort of relevant now and are timeless classics.

One thing that goes along with time, is that people do grow up. genres evolve. this is the reason I have also objected the over cooperate done one way action light hearted action comedy watered down comic book films that Marvel keep insisting on doing. as a long term comic book fan, these are the movies that have the quickest expiration date and time would not be kind to them.

[phonogram12]

If the Snyderverse films had likeable enough characters and consistent plots, they could be a bit longer. I watched 3 hrs of Endgame, in the theater, and that was good. But he needs to actually allow the characters to be likeable. I think he struggles with that a lot

Personally, I don't think he so much struggles with it as he doesn't think making a character likable makes them particularly interesting.

[Thezmage]

Personally, I don't think he so much struggles with it as he doesn't think making a character likable makes them particularly interesting.

It doesn't necessarily make them interesting but it can definitely make the experience of watching them more pleasant.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well I have already said it. yes, it will be a cult classic, only difference is that it means a lot because the movie has changed how people can do a comic film. HBO is going to learn from that style.


I agree bout Twin Peaks, but also remember Twin Peaks and Snyder are still cut from the cloths, they follow their instinct to create their craft, which is what is the factor here of why directors or writers even exist and deserve to be taken seriously.

I think following their instincts is perhaps the only similarity between Zack Snyder and David Lynch. But the latter has much better instincts as a filmmaker than the former and more talent to pull his stuff off. That's why he's easier to take seriously as a filmmaker than Snyder.

That's what has made the MCU so successfully ultimately.

It's not so much about the action but the characters.

That's something that Snyder struggled with in his version of the DCU. Most of his characters aren't particularly likeable.

I thought all the characters in the Snyder Cut were pretty likable save Superman who doesn't get much to do besides be a plot device. Bruce was much more likable here for what he was, even compared to some of the post-Crisis comics or actual TDKR Batman

Though this maybe down to just comparing them to Snyder's offerings, considering in BvS the only likable characters were Lois and Diana, and the latter mostly because she was the only hero who got to be straight up flashy and cool without any morose navel gazing.

[CosmiComic]

Agreed.

I like what he did with Cyborg but yeah, the other solo DCEU movies have done a better job with developing the individual characters.

And even Cyborg could do more. He has the sad backstory, but I want to see more.

Personally, I don't think he so much struggles with it as he doesn't think making a character likable makes them particularly interesting.

Yeah, I can see that.

[CosmiComic]

I thought all the characters in the Snyder Cut were pretty likable save Superman who doesn't get much to do besides be a plot device. Bruce was much more likable here for what he was, even compared to some of the post-Crisis comics or actual TDKR Batman

Though this maybe down to just comparing them to Snyder's offerings, considering in BvS the only likable characters were Lois and Diana, and the latter mostly because she was the only hero who got to be straight up flashy and cool without any morose navel gazing.

I didn't find Batman and Wonder Woman to be unlikeable so much as uninteresting in the Snyder cut, because the actors seemed to lack the energy of their previous portrayals. Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg were ok. Martian Manhunter was WTF?

[chicago_bastard]

Titanic, Avatar and Gone with End all had serious symbolic film achievements. People celebrate those films as a major important part of cinema, even the bad and the ugly side considering how dated Gone with the Wind is. MCU is more comparable to Fast and Furious or the Bad Boy series. to put MCU movies with Avatar, Gone with wind and titanic is laughable because this movies are part of serious cinema.

Avatar is by no means an artistically great movie. It appeals to the masses with its simplistic unoriginal plot, thin characterizations and unsophisticated message. Even the MCU has better villains than that generic Stephen Lang character whose only character trait is being evil. Its only merit stems from the 3D gimmick which didn't have any lasting impact on cinema at all as nobody cares about 3D anymore.

Of course it's comparable to Endgame as both are movies aimed at a mass audience looking for entertainment, and not at achieving artistic merit.

I dont know how anyone can compare James Cameron movies like Titanic and Avatar, movies known for James Cameron aggressive director only driven instinct and lone craft to the cooperate mass produced movies like IW/Endgame where directors dont even do much and the main point of them is to sell toys and open theme parks unlike James Cameron who is main goal is to let audiences step into a new age of film making. it makes no sense.

A movie is good if it achieves certain quality attributes, not just by the fact it was crafted by the sole vision of its director. There are great auteur movies as there are bad auteur movies, that alone isn't enough to claim artistic merit. Michael Cimino got carte blanche when he made Heaven's Gate and the movie is penned by critics and audiences alike.

With your examples you even contradicted yourself as Gone With The Wind is practically the antithesis to an auteur movie. There was no singular artistic vision at play here, three different directors worked on that film and it was basically the producer David O. Selznick who made the calls how the movie should look like, so it was actually pretty similar to the situation of the MCU movies with Kevin Feige supervising.

So yeah, Gone With The Wind was basically the Avengers: Endgame of the 1930s, a big budget production relying on a well-known IP made by a big film company that gave the directors clear instructions on how the movie should look, and yet it is still remembered today. So your statement that Endgame can't stand the test of time because of its production background is contradicted by empirical value.

Well I have already said it. yes, it will be a cult classic, only difference is that it means a lot because the movie has changed how people can do a comic film. HBO is going to learn from that style.

It didn't change anything and nobody will follow suit.

What's so fresh about it anyways? The common plot that Terrio basically borrowed from the first Avengers movie? The characterization that consists of giving three of the heroes parent issues (the lamest superhero trope of all) and the rest no characterization at all? The abundance of convenient actions only happening because the plot needs them to, instead of growing organically from what was shown beforehand? The banal dialogue? The atrocious pacing? The corny music choices? The unbearable slow-mos used for scenes that didn't gain any value from that stylistic choice? (where's the artistic merit of showing a friggin football match scene in slow-mo?) The repeated superhero tropes and generic one-liners?

I agree bout Twin Peaks, but also remember Twin Peaks and Snyder are still cut from the cloths, they follow their instinct to create their craft, which is what is the factor here of why directors or writers even exist and deserve to be taken seriously.

Comparing Snyder to Lynch is an insult to the latter. They have nothing in common apart from being directors. Trying to make a distinction between Avatar and Endgame on the one hand and then comparing a true master of his craft like Lynch to someone who is making movies for people who mistake CGI blood for an attribute of serious cinema is laughable.

[Alan2099]

Let's be honest.

It ain't even The Rocky Horror Picture Show.

You're right. I think a better comparison would be that Endgame is T2: Judgement Day and Snyder's Justice League is more Highlander 2: Renegade Director's Cut.

[numberthirty]

You're right. I think a better comparison would be that Endgame is T2: Judgement Day and Snyder's Justice League is more Highlander 2: Renegade Director's Cut.

Kidding around aside...

It honestly reminds me of the cut that Clive Barker finally got to do of Nightbreed where they essentially just put back in what the studio asked them to cut.

If you do not already care about Clive Barker or the film Nightbreed?

Then nothing worth taking note of happened.

It's not like it was transformed into some markedly more artistic film or a film more likely to snare either critics or regular Janes/Joes.

[numberthirty]

...

I agree bout Twin Peaks, but also remember Twin Peaks and Snyder are still cut from the cloths, they follow their instinct to create their craft, which is what is the factor here of why directors or writers even exist and deserve to be taken seriously.

...

Comparing Snyder to Lynch is an insult to the latter. They have nothing in common apart from being directors. Trying to make a distinction between Avatar and Endgame on the one hand and then comparing a true master of his craft like Lynch to someone who is making movies for people who mistake CGI blood for an attribute of serious cinema is laughable.

First...

I would honestly love to hear someone say that in front of Lynch.

Second...

(Completely Serious Here...)

Back in the day, when adult cinema was taking a run at being "Serious..." film making?

Those films are easily better art than Snyder's cut of this film.

For that matter, so are the Rob Zombie "Halloween..." films.