Which do you prefer Zack Snyder’s Justice League or Infinity War-Endgame?

[CosmiComic]

Sometimes. Sometimes not. See Wanda.

And Iron Man hasn't been held accountable for anything, despite all the people he's killed.

I think the MCU could do a better job of holding the heroes accountable. They attempted that in Civil War, but somehow it became about how superheroes are being oppressed.

[SiegePerilous02]

About been objective. I think you need to read this. it is your own post.
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...dislikes/page5


Now to be objective and even truthful.
1. Fox movies saved Marvel from bankruptcy, without Fox, Sony there would be no IW/Endgame. this is the truth.

2. While it is personally and always possible not to like Fox films just because they are not part of the MCU. it is factually not objective to say Fox totally dropped the ball because Fox movies did on correct terms push the comic book genre forward and have gone places MCU will never be able to go. This is a fact in 2021 because MCU cannot make anymore r rated movies like Logan or PG 13 films like DOFP because Disney is not allowed to have certain content in their movies as confirmed by their spiderman and iron man directors, not to mention the grounded style and heavy social themes of the fox films that was their only high acclaim.

In a twist of fate, JL Cut does have more of a Marvel fox vibe, that you were never objective about. That is part of the reason it is so well made from a director's POV. Snyder owned this film as Mangold owned Logan

So please next time you tell me to be objective, dont. I dont say anything that I know is a big fact lie about marvel or dc because I Have never looked at it as marvel fans vs dc fans.



In the Avengers films, I am pretty sure hulk did more damage and killed people in the name of stopping Loki.

And the word is where it ends. she killed terrorists. Maybe we should let WW elevate from Avengers to more like Jack Buaer from 24. This just confirms when Snyder said he was telling a more mature comic book story. in that content, it is perfectly okay to kill terrorists.

Rucka and Perez write a WW who killed at certain points, but didn't do stuff like this.

That write a mature WW. Snyder did not

[SiegePerilous02]

Eh, I'm not sure it worked out. The Joker killed the love of his life,drove Dent crazy and was blowing up hospitals ffs. I mean I get not wanting to kill but the guy jumps off his bike to avoid hitting Joker and ends up killing Dent in the end anyway. It's like way to go protecting your city guy. Yeah I'd feel safer with sonic boom WW around.

I would feel safer with Ruckas Wonder Woman around. Who stopped a similar situation in Year One without killing a single person or causing reckless property damage. While being a complete novice with her powers. And who is pragmatic enough to know she needs to kill in other situations.

[CosmiComic]

I think the main thing to tske away from this is killing doesn't equal mature, or complex

[Alan2099]

I think the main thing to tske away from this is killing doesn't equal mature, or complex

I would also like to add having bright colors and telling jokes doesn't automatically make one immature either.

[CosmiComic]

I would also like to add having bright colors and telling jokes doesn't automatically make one immature either.

Thats is also true.

In fact, you'd think art centered around ideas of good and evil would try to dispel the societal myth of bright and varied colors not being serious

[Castle]

I get that, but in terms of the VFX it's not conveyed. Again, I think you're talking about the designs/concept art more so than the actual VFX. In fact, stating that it's better due to Snyder aiming to tell a more adult focussed story shows that you're judging the VFX subjectively, not objectively. For example Fant4stic (2015) aimed to tell a body horror story aimed at older teens and adults, however this does not mean its rendering of The Thing is better than the rendering of Hulk in Avengers. You may appreciate that they were going for something "grittier and horrifying" but that doesn't automatically mean that its better from an objective standpoint.
.

I was talking of both because they are linked and have to flow well. The design/concept is also linked to how the VFX looks in the end.
A lot of directors who opt for more adult story telling, will never favour cartoonish looking very colourful looking CGI that Disney has favoured since MCU phase 2. These directors tend to go more a more grounded looking or scaled back VFX many times practical effects. Which many times give a gritter, high fantasy vibe or modern science fiction vibe. We know there is a difference between how GOTG and Thor looks to Interstellar and Gravity.

To make another objective comparison to another franchise. The star wars prequels. One of the biggest criticisms of the prequels was those movies relied more on generic CGI that lacked the art sense of the original trilogy because George Lucas had become too obsessed with selling toys. By Attack of the clones, this criticism had become a big sour spot. Lucas had to scale back for Revenge of the Sith. Episode 3 did not look as cartoonish as Attack of the Clones.

Well now you are been subjective and as I said, on the box office Avatar thread, I dont get how fans will tell other fans, my series gave me emotional feelings and yours did not. that is been subjective. Some MCU fans also made the case that the Navis barely had any emotional story, which was objectively not true because Avatar at best is even a love story…a chick flick.

You can argue how thanos became a big iconic character from a fans point because of how he looked , however this is not objective , that has to do with VFX, Make up, CGI, practical effects and so on. Thanos was not even among the best 3 VFX films in 2019. Not when there was Alita Battle Angel , 1917 and Ad Astra

I don’t think thanos pushed the envelope to be frank. I think Thanos was the breaking point with comic book movies. It was after Endgame in 2019 that Martin Scorsese said marvel movies are not cinema and are theme parks and many other directors took his side, while some comic book directors tried to distance themselves from MCU films, If thanos pushed the envelope in film making, many film makers would not have a problem with avengers films. why don’t they hate Avatar or LOTR or Star Wars? these directors wont even attack the star wars prequels and the lord of the rings prequels as they do with Avengers films.

While I am not the biggest fan of Scorsese , however he did just not get it anywhere that these movies are theme parks. He must have seen something that made him get to that conclusion. And this, my dearest friend, takes comic films backward not forward because many directors don’t take comic films seriously anymore….again because they look like theme parks to them and are not real enough.

Re-watch the final fight with him and captain America. Thanos felt very bulky and could barely move smoothly. I cannot understand how anyone can say this movement were realistic objectively.


With too much green screen. When I look the scene of thanos fighting steve, I appreciate why Bryan singer as a film maker, slimmed down the Sentinels in DOFP from the comics in films. These are just some good film instinct many directors have with handling the more cartoonish still picture aspect of comic books on live action screen, However since MCU is so hugely cooperate , they lack a lot of this instinct. Are you also aware that the MCU producer once said the entire IW took place on a green screen. We cannot sit here in good faith say thanos movement felt artistic and also same the same about Gollum from LOTR or even the Goblins from Harry Potters.

Artistic vision has never been enough for fans, that is why we will always be stuck in superficial fan battles of marvel is better and dc is bad and marvel is bad and dc is better however they matter most in judging a movie as an art piece. Which is what I am doing here and I seem to be one of the few.

Good trivia about artistic visions.

Many people in Hollywood deslike James Cameron, he barely has actor fans but the reason he has so much power and respect is because they cannot deny he is a great artist and folks will be in his movies only on that factor.

Here is another sicker but more twisted truth.

Many people also know Woody Allen is dirty for marrying his ex girlfriend's daughter and maybe a paedophile but they all will ignore this and star in his movies, because they all want to win Oscars for best actress and supporting actress and a Woody screenplay can guarantee that because he is that good of an artistic writer.

This is why the artistic minded has always been the best standing when it comes to judging movies objectively over what fans says or feel based only on agape love attachments to a series.

Ironically, Fiege said he made IW/Endgame for fans. Maybe he should think about changing this opinions and start to look at comic films as serious cinema.

[Castle]

Rucka and Perez write a WW who killed at certain points, but didn't do stuff like this.

That write a mature WW. Snyder did not

For a person who has told me many times, you dont like snyder. i have no problem with your bias.

However it is quite true that more adult friendly stories, do have their heroes actually killing terrorists even sometimes just to be cruel than for self defence. something Snyder never even did with WW.

Factually consider the 3 J.Bs. James Bond, Jason Bourne and Jack Bauer. I can add WW to that list. your personal dislike for Snyder cannot stop this from happening because I am not telling a lie that this spy good guys don't kill terrorists.

If anyone does not have a problem with that, it atomically means they should have none with WW doing the same.

[Killerbee911]

I think the MCU could do a better job of holding the heroes accountable. They attempted that in Civil War, but somehow it became about how superheroes are being oppressed.

How much more accountable do you need to be than government-sanctioned group with a strict set of rules aka Sokovia accords?

[Castle]

We were talking about why they became vigilantes. Not facing due process as vigilantes.

Wasnt there a rough plot point like this after civil war? MCU are usually good in trying to show a plot point. they just never care to address it deeply. addressing things deeply is what blurs the line of an adult's tale vs a kid's tale.

After Civil war, MCU should have focused more on smaller stories compared to the gigantic shoes of IW/Endgame.

[Sutekh]

Ironically, Fiege said he made IW/Endgame for fans. Maybe he should think about changing this opinions and start to look at comic films as serious cinema.

So he can go from being ridiculously successful to... less so?

I hope he just keeps doing what he's doing. His instincts appear to be serving him pretty well so far.

[SiegePerilous02]

For a person who has told me many times, you dont like snyder. i have no problem with your bias.

However it is quite true that more adult friendly stories, do have their heroes actually killing terrorists even sometimes just to be cruel than for self defence. something Snyder never even did with WW.

Factually consider the 3 J.Bs. James Bond, Jason Bourne and Jack Bauer. I can add WW to that list. your personal dislike for Snyder cannot stop this from happening because I am not telling a lie that this spy good guys don't kill terrorists.

If anyone does not have a problem with that, it atomically means they should have none with WW doing the same.

I wouldn't throw the bias card around if I were you.

No those other characters are not Wonder Woman and she is not them. This stance that all characters are interchangeable regardless of character, genre or story is never helpful. Its just pulling random names out of thin air. Context and characters and genre matter in discussions like this.

[Alan2099]

If anyone does not have a problem with that, it atomically means they should have none with WW doing the same.

If you're going to list character that have nothing in common with Wonder Woman to prove some kind of weird point, then I'm going to do that too.

People don't have any problems with Kirby, Werewolf by night, or Venom eating their opponents, so Wonder Woman should eat her enemies too.

People don't have a problem with Rambo, Optimus Prime, Godzilla, the Hulk, Trash the zombie, or the Alien Queen walking around without a top on, so Wonder Woman shouldn't have a top on either.

The point is, (if you're too oblivious to otherwise notice it) I'm not saying Wonder Woman should actually do these things. I'm saying what works for one character doesn't always work for other.

[CosmiComic]

How much more accountable do you need to be than government-sanctioned group with a strict set of rules aka Sokovia accords?

I see that, but it still seems the heroes ultimately do whatever they want.

[The Cool Thatguy]

If you're going to list character that have nothing in common with Wonder Woman to prove some kind of weird point, then I'm going to do that too.

People don't have any problems with Kirby, Werewolf by night, or Venom eating their opponents, so Wonder Woman should eat her enemies too.

People don't have a problem with Rambo, Optimus Prime, Godzilla, the Hulk, Trash the zombie, or the Alien Queen walking around without a top on, so Wonder Woman shouldn't have a top on either.

The point is, (if you're too oblivious to otherwise notice it) I'm not saying Wonder Woman should actually do these things. I'm saying what works for one character doesn't always work for other.

Whoa, whoa, slow down. You're speaking in tongues