View Poll Results: Which do you prefer ZS Justice League or Infinity War/Endgame?

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  • Zack Snyder’s Justice League

    19 13.57%
  • Avengers Infinity War-Endgame

    121 86.43%
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  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Tripper View Post
    Most people don’t find MCU movies something to be blamed for in general seeing as most people who have worked with him have praised Feige. As I said, most creative difference problems happened whilst Perlmutter was in charge, it doesn’t seem like a coincidence.

    But you rarely see people praise Lucas outside of the OT (unless they’re his friends like Spielberg.

    The problem here is, that I don’t mind people growing up to like other things in the genre, I never have been. But the thing is, people can like both, like myself. I’ve never said that won’t happen, but at the end of the day, a father is not gonna show his 7 year old son Logan or Joker. It’s funny to me though how you can’t understand people liking different types of film. No matter what, the MCU will have serious staying power because like Star Wars, they’re great all ages movies. It’s also funny to me that you criticise the sequel trilogy when at least the first two movies seemed to have a lot of creative control and artistic vision (especially TLJ). Also, surprise surprise, the people who defend the prequel trilogy are those who grew up with it. They aren’t leaving it behind for top tier sci fi like Ex Machina, Blade Runner 2049 etc. That’s not how it works. You can still love other types of films and, in fact, the general public will most likely always prefer films like the MCU.

    I love XMen TAS but no, I don’t think a substantial amount of young people today would enjoy it, it hasn’t aged greatly. MCU movies leading up to Endgame became a phenomenon, even the Disney plus shows are showing viral popularity, it’s just wrong to say they won’t have a legacy, whether you like them or not.
    I doubt most young people are actively going back to watch an old cartoon anyway. But at least XMen TAS was a 90's cartoon!

  2. #557

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    It was a key part of Iron Man 2, added context to Captain America: Civil War, and was part of the closure in Infinity War (not to mention the indirect addressing by showing him trying to be a better father to his own kid).
    Exactly. In Civil War, when he found out Winter Soldier killed his parents he told Steve "He killed my mom," not "He killed my parents." Him meeting his dad again in Endgame and getting closure before his own death was a major part of his character arc.
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  3. #558
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Exactly. In Civil War, when he found out Winter Soldier killed his parents he told Steve "He killed my mom," not "He killed my parents." Him meeting his dad again in Endgame and getting closure before his own death was a major part of his character arc.
    Yeah, say what you will about the MCU movies as a whole, but they invest a lot in the character development.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, say what you will about the MCU movies as a whole, but they invest a lot in the character development.
    Well, it's hard to have character development when you're dead or absent for most of the movie.

    Then again, Superman was throughout BvS, yet barely got any

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Perlmutter's blame is generally focused on the lack of creative control seen in the early Phase 2 movies and unwillingness to give things a chance (like sidelining the very popular Black Widow from toys and her own movie due to his own biases). Something like Thor: Ragnarok may or may not have been "good," but it was the product of the director's artistic freedom and passes/fails on that, not on Perlmutter's previous mistakes.
    Marvel lost all creative control once Disney bought them. It does not matter how many don't want to admit this reality, this truth will not change. it has been documented many times over and there are interviews out there of Bob Iger talking about how they were going to bend marvel to match disney's definition of what they think qualifies as art and eneteritment in mainstream even if their comics says otherwise. Perlmutter's big problem was more about trying to destroy the other marvel characters that still belonged to fox or sony. it was never about control with the marvel IPs he already he had.

    I have to give some people props and admire their fan devotion. Marvel keeps on proving they have only one formula by not allowing more r rated movies , insisting they will stick only light hearted films. always having a one solution of making a movie into a comedy, when they think a series is not working out like the Thor films, putting out trailers like Shang Chi this looks like a cross between Black Panther/Captain Marvel/Dr Strange and some are still insisting marvel has creative freedom in the exact same way like WB or Fox once upon a time had. lol
    It was a key part of Iron Man 2, added context to Captain America: Civil War, and was part of the closure in Infinity War (not to mention the indirect addressing by showing him trying to be a better father to his own kid). That's not nothing (and more then we got with the Big Three in the Snyderverse trilogy -- although most anything is, to be fair). Also worth noting is that Iron Man's story arc over the Infinity Saga had way more to do with his struggles with self-destructive tendencies and selfishness, anyways. Why aren't we using that as the starting point for assessing the character writing across the series?
    It was not a key part of Iron Man 2 if you are comparing the parental issues of Bruce Wayne or Erik Lensharr and now Cyborg, Tony's issues are barely in existence because Iron Man 2 story is not present and one of the most infamous movies of just trying to set up something bigger at the expense of other stand alone plots, that plot of tony and his father would have shined and stood out way more in a far better situation if like Mickey Rouke said about the film , marvel cared more about substance. to call this a key part of iron man 2, is to push the Cyborg story in the Snyder Cut to masterpiece writing. Also even when Stark senior appeared in Endgame, the story lacked any real complexity.


    Cyborg had to make his dad, work for his redemption for being a crappy father. All tony sees here is dad was still cool anyway, because that is now Disney thinks, is all fluff to them. No real complex mature dynamics that is relatable in more real life scenarios of failed parenting. You see Cyborg's anger with his dad in the Snyder cut but nope. cant have that in IW/Endgame. it will make the movie to angst, too serious and dark and this is all lies because Spiderman 2002 has shown this to be true with Noman Osbourne been a crappy father to Harry and we see Harry's trauma in the next two films even to the point he hallucinates about his father. it's deeper with other films than what Tony got.

    And yet that happens again and again, to the extent that Hollywood has discovered that mining nostalgia is very profitable. Frankly, at this point, you just sound sore that the MCU will probably outlast the Snyderverse and are stuck in the bargain stage of grief. If you don't like the MCU, don't watch it. With DC's upcoming Batman movie, it souns like there will be darker stuff suited to your tastes anyways, so why waste so much time obsessing over something you can't control?
    This has nothing to do with life's designs of .....the more you get older, the more your minds adapts to a lot more serious things and mature themes. It is really not about taste because there are more comic fans who have a taste for anything comics than overthinking liking Marvel or Batman more. it does not stop their ageing and brain adapting process to see the other side of life that is not only about rainbows, ice creams and colors.
    Last edited by Castle; 04-26-2021 at 11:53 AM.

  6. #561
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    If your opinion is 180 degrees different than 85% of everyone else, you may want to reconsider the validity of your opinion.

    If your defense of your position is that you have special knowledge that the other 85% don’t have, then you may want to reconsider the strength of your defense.

    If you imply that your special knowledge is not known to the other 85% because they are too stupid and/or too biased to really grasp the intricacies of the factors and techniques involved, then you shouldn’t pretend to be surprised that you are called names that accurately reflect your stance.

    If you believe that your opinion is objective, or that everyone else’s facts are objectively wrong, then you may want to revisit the meaning of objectivity.

    If you believe that phrasing your opinions in ways that are dismissive and condescending are the way to great discourse, you may want to reconsider the wisdom of posting in a public forum.

  7. #562
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Marvel lost all creative control once Disney bought them. It does not matter how many don't want to admit this reality, this truth will not change. it has been documented many times over and there are interviews out there of Bob Iger talking about how they were going to bend marvel to match disney's definition of what they think qualifies as art and eneteritment in mainstream even if their comics says otherwise. Perlmutter's big problem was more about trying to destroy the other marvel characters that still belonged to fox or sony. it was never about control with the marvel IPs he already he had.
    We get it, you hate the MCU, but repeating the same rubbish will not prove your delusions any more then it the other times you've dredged them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I have to give some people props and admire their fan devotion.
    I feel like that describes you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Marvel keeps on proving they have only one formula by not allowing more r rated movies , insisting they will stick only light hearted films. always having a one solution of making a movie into a comedy, when they think a series is not working out like the Thor films, putting out trailers like Shang Chi this looks like a cross between Black Panther/Captain Marvel/Dr Strange and some are still insisting marvel has creative freedom in the exact same way like WB or Fox once upon a time had. lol
    You really don't understand what "formula" means, do you? Also, if you think that mature storytelling means R ratings, you need to brush up on how story craft works, because one has nothing to do with the other (case in point Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 vs. Batman v Superman).

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    It was not a key part of Iron Man 2
    Wrong. That's not up for debate. Prefer Snyder's Cyborg story if you will, but give the devil his due for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    This has nothing to do with life's designs of .....the more you get older, the more your minds adapts to a lot more serious things and mature themes. It is really not about taste because there are more comic fans who have a taste for anything comics than overthinking liking Marvel or Batman more. it does not stop their ageing and brain adapting process to see the other side of life that is not only about rainbows, ice creams and colors.
    "Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis

    Also, I find it highly ironic that you consider colorful and whimsical to be immature, given that the fanciful has generally proven to tell more mature stories then the likes of the Snyderverse:

    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  8. #563
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    The current count is 108 to 17, That should say something that is embarrassingly bad. What more really needs to be said
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 04-26-2021 at 11:24 PM.

  9. #564

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The current count is 108 to 17, That should say something that is embarrassingly bad. What more really needs to be said
    I’m sure some posters will argue it doesn’t mean anything but then proceed to say that Thor Ragnarok or MCU Spider-Man are widely considered bad due to some other threads on this forum.

  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Tripper View Post
    I’m sure some posters will argue it doesn’t mean anything but then proceed to say that Thor Ragnarok or MCU Spider-Man are widely considered bad due to some other threads on this forum.
    I have seen that notion before I don't think "widely considered bad" is an accurate assessment of their gripes on those films. The people mad at MCU Spiderman and Thor are mostly mad characterizations not really the quality of the movie, For Spiderman they feel he is too connected to Iron Man and for Thor he has too much of personality change and he feels too close 616 Hercules. While I feel their complaints are some what valid and you can't completely dismiss them they never actually describe the actual movies themselves as bad movies overall just bad adaptions of the source material.

    At this point MCU is clearly its own unique thing I don't think 616 source material really matters as much anymore other than as general guide line, I think biggest nail in that coffin is Sharon Carter who is the Power broker now. Tony Stark and Black Widow is dead, Steve Rogers is old, Hulk is smart and calm. If this doesn't scream not 616 stories I don't know what does. All of that is long winded way of saying people need to look at this like an alternate reality take. As comic fan I can't get mad at people who want closer reverence/following of the source material but as with fan with common sense if you can't understand Spiderman 3, Amazing Spiderman 1 & 2 effect on Spiderman franchise or Thor 1 & 2 effect on Franchise I can't take your point of view too seriously. The lack of success of the movies before lead push of those properties to have to be something different.

    PS- I know you weren't disagreeing with my post I just saw the opening to talk about MCU Thor and Spiderman. Plus you have been killing liking it in this thread I have been smashing the imaginary like button your posts.

  11. #566
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    Kevin Feige had to make an ultimatum that he would quit if Perlmutter wasn't taken off the position he was in and they hired back James Gunn after being fired by Disney in the first place, saying Marvel is just on the whims of what Disney wants is retarded.

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
    Kevin Feige had to make an ultimatum that he would quit if Perlmutter wasn't taken off the position he was in and they hired back James Gunn after being fired by Disney in the first place, saying Marvel is just on the whims of what Disney wants is retarded.
    Disney owns Marvel. Tantrums by a specific person concerning a specific issue is one thing and you don't run a company like that on "whims" but Disney is indeed the boss here.

  13. #568
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    Not actually going to vote on this, as I've not seen Snyder's Full Artistic Vision yet and probably won't bother, but i did find that "Snyder Cut Best Scene"... uh... interesting.

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Not actually going to vote on this, as I've not seen Snyder's Full Artistic Vision yet and probably won't bother, but i did find that "Snyder Cut Best Scene"... uh... interesting.
    Yeah...

    I've actually sat through that a couple more times.

    Just kinda...

    "So... Yeah..."

  15. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Not actually going to vote on this, as I've not seen Snyder's Full Artistic Vision yet and probably won't bother, but i did find that "Snyder Cut Best Scene"... uh... interesting.
    Which scene are you referring to?

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