Which do you prefer Zack Snyder’s Justice League or Infinity War-Endgame?

[CosmiComic]

One thing I’ve noticed in conversations online is how the first couple of movies in the DCEU have colored people’s impressions of the others. Most of the people who admit really liking Aquaman and Shazam still talk about it like it’s all Batman V Superman

That's too bad honestly

[ZeroBG82]

Not even WW, Aquaman or Shazam?

It's funny you bring up those two films. I enjoyed both, though Aquaman is pretty much unabashedly a popcorn film (nothing wrong with that, mind). But Shazam was a breath of fresh air. That's a film that's actually interested in what makes someone a hero, about questions of virtue vs selfishness, and actually has something to say about it's hero. It's not a perfect film by any stretch of the imagination, but it has fun, and it tries to use it's action to actually move a narrative forward.

But there's definitely room for different tones across the shared universe. One of the criticisms of Marvel films that has some weight is that they feel very tonally similar. Not identical certainly, and they have gotten bolder about variety as they have branched out into some of the lesser known or weirder avenues of their universe. But not everything needs to be light and fun. But darkness for the sake of darkness isn't inherently deep or mature. Darkness needs to be used to express some idea about who, how or why the world is dark. Joker is a fantastic example. Joker has something to say about structural, societal roadblocks in the mental health industry and how they relate to crime and lawlessness. I have my issues with that film as well, but at least it was using it's darkness to try and make a deeper point about the characters and the world that results in that darkness.

[WebLurker]

This argument that fans of traditional superheroes need to wake up from a dream world and can't tell the difference between reality and fiction always seems to make pretty big assumptions about the audience. And is frankly kind of insulting.

Yeah we know Batman's campaign would realistically either result in his death in a couple weeks, or a LOT more serious injuries and deaths to the people he was fighting. But...he's not real, and an actual child could tell you that. It also means fans may expect something from Batman, but that assumes they only consume Batman or superhero media and not other genres where expectations are different. That's why different genres and characters exist in the first place.

Yeah, I agree that Snyder's comments are indicative of why he was a bad choice for the DCEU. However, I think it does explain why he chose to reframe Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc., as killers and why the Snyderverse is more nihilistic without the hope or positivity the other DCEU movies have.

One thing I’ve noticed in conversations online is how the first couple of movies in the DCEU have colored people’s impressions of the others. Most of the people who admit really liking Aquaman and Shazam still talk about it like it’s all Batman V Superman

Maybe as time goes on, the influx of more (hopefully consistently good) movies will change the conversation, as the Snyderverse is no longer the driving influence (either in movies tying into it or being made to distance the DCEU from it)? I guess the Snyder Cut and "Restore the Snydervere" stuff might extend the shelf life a bit, but that's not going to last forever.

Not even WW, Aquaman or Shazam?

Of the ones I've seen, Wonder Woman and Birds of Prey are my favorites. Shazam was also pretty good and I thought WW84 was okay (flawed, but I enjoyed it anyways). Didn't like Batman v Superman extended cut (never saw the theatrical version) or Justice League that much, Suicide Squad (extended cut) was okay, but it really suffered from the troubled production, and I never saw Man of Steel, Aquaman, or the Snyder Cut.

[CosmiComic]

Ok. For me the main thing about shared universe is having characters who evolve across the series while still being enjoyable.

But tonally distinct subseries is a good thing to have too, as long as the plots don't contradict one another

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, I agree that Snyder's comments are indicative of why he was a bad choice for the DCEU. However, I think it does explain why he chose to reframe Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc., as killers and why the Snyderverse is more nihilistic without the hope or positivity the other DCEU movies have.

I wouldn't say he re-framed them as killers though, more that he chose odd ways and moments to make them kill. At least with Superman and Wonder Woman, who even in the modern day have killed, even with reluctance. Stuff like killing Zod and putting Wonder Woman in a similar scenario wouldn't be automatically bad for me. It's just the execution (too early for Supes to kill somebody and lack of follow up; WW lethally killing normal humans when they are a threat she can handle without the need to do so)

Batman is the one who is defended as being a killer due to the early Golden Age stuff and other media adaptations. But the Golden Age stuff didn't last that long, isn't regarded by anybody as being the height of Batman comics compared to what came after anyway, and the other media films films are actually a solid reason why we might need a break and more accuracy for a change instead of cranking it up to 11.

[Thezmage]

Maybe as time goes on, the influx of more (hopefully consistently good) movies will change the conversation, as the Snyderverse is no longer the driving influence (either in movies tying into it or being made to distance the DCEU from it)? I guess the Snyder Cut and "Restore the Snydervere" stuff might extend the shelf life a bit, but that's not going to last forever.

I'm honestly not sure what they can do short of some hard reboot including major recasting

[CosmiComic]

I'm honestly not sure what they can do short of some hard reboot including major recasting

I think the casting has been mostly good so far

[Thezmage]

I think the casting has been mostly good so far

Not saying it's not but I don't see anything short of recasting all their major players to draw a line in the sand between the old DCEU and the new one I don't think they can escape the precedent that their first 3 films established

[CosmiComic]

Not saying it's not but I don't see anything short of recasting all their major players to draw a line in the sand between the old DCEU and the new one I don't think they can escape the precedent that their first 3 films established

Ok I see what you're saying

[WebLurker]

I wouldn't say he re-framed them as killers though, more that he chose odd ways and moments to make them kill. At least with Superman and Wonder Woman, who even in the modern day have killed, even with reluctance. Stuff like killing Zod and putting Wonder Woman in a similar scenario wouldn't be automatically bad for me. It's just the execution (too early for Supes to kill somebody and lack of follow up; WW lethally killing normal humans when they are a threat she can handle without the need to do so)

Batman is the one who is defended as being a killer due to the early Golden Age stuff and other media adaptations. But the Golden Age stuff didn't last that long, isn't regarded by anybody as being the height of Batman comics compared to what came after anyway, and the other media films films are actually a solid reason why we might need a break and more accuracy for a change instead of cranking it up to 11.

Sure, I can see the point that, if nothing else, it was presented very shallowly on Snyder's part, which might make sense; judging from his quote how he sees superheros killing people as "realistic" without any thought to how it works from a narrative standpoint or how it affects what he's trying to say with his movies.

I'm honestly not sure what they can do short of some hard reboot including major recasting

Don't see why they need to. I mean, the casting choices have been generally well received (Gal Gadot is Wonder Woman a la how Hugh Jackman was Wolverine, and even in the cases of Ban Afflek and Henry Cavil, it seems like the general opinion is that they were good casting choices let down by how Snyder wrote them). Maybe they'll do a movie that reboots stuff a la Days of Future Past, but if they can get the same effect by just making new movies that leave the old ones in a position where you can skip the Snyderverse without missing anything in the now, you have effectively rebooted. (I can follow, to an extent, that starting over from scratch might seem like the way to get past the failure of the Snyderverse, but it seems like doing so would also cost us the stuff that viewers are actually engaging with.)

[Thezmage]

Don't see why they need to. I mean, the casting choices have been generally well received (Gal Gadot is Wonder Woman a la how Hugh Jackman was Wolverine, and even in the cases of Ban Afflek and Henry Cavil, it seems like the general opinion is that they were good casting choices let down by how Snyder wrote them). Maybe they'll do a movie that reboots stuff a la Days of Future Past, but if they can get the same effect by just making new movies that leave the old ones in a position where you can skip the Snyderverse without missing anything in the now, you have effectively rebooted. (I can follow, to an extent, that starting over from scratch might seem like the way to get past the failure of the Snyderverse, but it seems like doing so would also cost us the stuff that viewers are actually engaging with.)

There have been more movies post Snyder-verse than within, a clear change in the leadership, and still people make joes about how DC characters don't smile. It doesn't appear that just continuing to make new films has had the desired effect

[Powerboy]

One thing I’ve noticed in conversations online is how the first couple of movies in the DCEU have colored people’s impressions of the others. Most of the people who admit really liking Aquaman and Shazam still talk about it like it’s all Batman V Superman

Unfortunately, it's a first impressions thing. It taints people's view of everything.

[CosmiComic]

Maybe the Flash will bring us to a new reality where DCEU is good movies and well received!

[Adam West]

It's funny you bring up those two films. I enjoyed both, though Aquaman is pretty much unabashedly a popcorn film (nothing wrong with that, mind). But Shazam was a breath of fresh air. That's a film that's actually interested in what makes someone a hero, about questions of virtue vs selfishness, and actually has something to say about it's hero. It's not a perfect film by any stretch of the imagination, but it has fun, and it tries to use it's action to actually move a narrative forward.

But there's definitely room for different tones across the shared universe. One of the criticisms of Marvel films that has some weight is that they feel very tonally similar. Not identical certainly, and they have gotten bolder about variety as they have branched out into some of the lesser known or weirder avenues of their universe. But not everything needs to be light and fun. But darkness for the sake of darkness isn't inherently deep or mature. Darkness needs to be used to express some idea about who, how or why the world is dark. Joker is a fantastic example. Joker has something to say about structural, societal roadblocks in the mental health industry and how they relate to crime and lawlessness. I have my issues with that film as well, but at least it was using it's darkness to try and make a deeper point about the characters and the world that results in that darkness.

Man I love Shazam.
It's probably the best DCEU movie to date.
If you think about it, they deal with pretty awful stuff. I mean you got a kid that's being abandon by his own mother because she's depressed in handling him. As a parent myself, that stuff hits pretty hard when I watched it.
There's actual growth of the characters throughout the movie, and by the time the action come, I absolutely care about Billy and his adopted family. Which makes the final battle in the end paid off.

[vanessaknows]

Snyder Cut has too much slow-mo + unnecessary tragic scenes. Really hard to watch. Watchmen much butter for example.