Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 178
  1. #16
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I mean if they are “clones” does that mean that have less value even if there’s only one of them around? They have the same lived experiences (barring things that happens the moment they died), same powers, and same personalities. I much prefer this then having them go up to heaven to drag people back like they did with Kurt a while ago.
    Well yeah it kinda does. You can’t say Ben Reilly was Peter Parker can you now?

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    6,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcnewb View Post
    Well yeah it kinda does. You can’t say Ben Reilly was Peter Parker can you now?
    It's funny that you say it, because in The Clone Conspirancy, Jackal invents a cloning method in which the original soul always returned to the different successive bodies, confirmed by Doctor Strange. Jackal killed and resurrected Ben Reilly countless times and the same soul always returned.

    There are clones with different souls and there are clones with the same soul, it all depends on the method used (and if there is more than one simultaneous copy)

  3. #18
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Grunty, you're using "soul" logic. Hickman is implying the human essence is just data you can copy and save onto a Cloud-type system and retrieve and download onto a new device after you lost your old one.
    Perhaps the soul is connected to the living characters mind and the brain patterns serve as a storage for it, and when the person dies the soul is sucked from the dead body and is stored within the brain patterns recorded in Cerebro and then awaits to be relocated to a new body.

    So in other words maybe Cerebro intercepts the soul and instead of going to the afterlife, Cerebro served as a sort of soul waiting room for mutants. Where they wait to be given a new body...

  4. #19
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    It's funny that you say it, because in The Clone Conspirancy, Jackal invents a cloning method in which the original soul always returned to the different successive bodies, confirmed by Doctor Strange. Jackal killed and resurrected Ben Reilly countless times and the same soul always returned.

    There are clones with different souls and there are clones with the same soul, it all depends on the method used (and if there is more than one simultaneous copy)
    My intended definition of clone is basically a new body with a new soul... if it’s a new body with the same soul then I wouldn’t call it a clone. At least that’s what I meant in the OP

  5. #20
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    13,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcnewb View Post
    My intended definition of clone is basically a new body with a new soul... if it’s a new body with the same soul then I wouldn’t call it a clone. At least that’s what I meant in the OP
    Then by your definition...they aren't clones.
    The anima with the stored memories, characteristics, experiences and feelings etc. remains the same (That's why Xavier takes time to do back-ups and up-dates often)
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 04-07-2021 at 01:42 PM.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    4,270

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Then by your definition...they aren't clones.
    The anima with the stored memories, characteristics, experiences and feelings etc. remains the same (That's why Xavier takes time to do back-ups often)
    They’re re-sleeves, to borrow a terminology.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    4,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcnewb View Post
    Well yeah it kinda does. You can’t say Ben Reilly was Peter Parker can you now?
    Ok but Ben’s life doesn’t inherently have less “value” than Peter’s because he’s a clone. Also that’s exactly why they have a rule against duplicates, so one of them doesn’t have to fight over identity and potentially have to make an entirely new one.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Nazrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,221

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Then by your definition...they aren't clones.
    The anima with the stored memories, characteristics, experiences and feelings etc. remains the same (That's why Xavier takes time to do back-ups often)
    But a backup is by definition a copy; a duplication separate from the original; if they die in between backup they don't get those memories back, and it brings up the question if this was actually resurrection, why would you need a backup in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    They’re re-sleeves, to borrow a terminology.
    You realize that in altered carbon, the notion of immortality is a lie, right?
    You have multiple versions of the same person walking around repeatedly in it, but society has been built so much around this technology, to the point that everyone's higher functions have been off loaded to computer implants, and they're all walking around in brain dead bodies, and questioning thing at thing point would only bring madness so they just don't think about it, or try to reconcile the concept with their ideas of spirituality, hence the religious coding.
    Last edited by Nazrel; 04-07-2021 at 01:58 PM.
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  9. #24
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    462

    Default

    My favored theory is of Proteus' contribution to the Five as a reality warper, being what ensures the resurrected character is genuine. But I wouldn't put it past Hickman at the end of this run, to have one or more characters get a "clone all along!" reveal with their subsequent return being a reset of that character. Kinda like the Secret Invasion returned characters.

  10. #25
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    13,917

    Default

    The up-dating is what's important, not the backing-up, per se.
    My understanding (from the early data pages) is...with Cerebro he collects, up-dates and stores every mind on Krakoa...regularly. It's an ongoing process.
    The back-ups/copies are for "in case of emergencies" scenarios should the original "masters" be lost or compromised. (As when Xavier was shot in the head in X-Force 02)

    And while the back-ups are technically copies...they are the exact memories, emotions, experiences, history etc. all collected and recorded up to the time of the last update.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 04-07-2021 at 02:16 PM.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  11. #26

    Default

    It they believe it then yes. People in real life claim they believe in certain things and hide behind faith and spirituality and live a life of anything but and yet their beliefs are touted as "real". So yeah if they say they aren't clones and they believe each other. Then their real. Who are we to say someone isn't what they claim.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
    Number of People on my ignore list: 0
    #conceptualthinking ^_^
    #ByeMarvEN

    Into the breach.
    https://www.instagram.com/jartist27/

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    983

    Default

    We know that souls exist in marvel universe. When Kurt returned from the afterlife he came back with his memories, right? So we can say memories are a part of soul. Then the resurrections are a fancy way of cloning otherwise why need memory backups. On the other hand if it is indeed cloning then there is no explanation why someone who died in otherworld can't be resurrected properly so there is a logical inconsistency with the whole process.
    Last edited by Doom'nGloom; 04-07-2021 at 02:39 PM.

  13. #28
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    133

    Default

    The resurrection process has two parts. The creation of a body and a restoring of the collective essence of a person or their soul. The body is nothing more than a clone but it is the integrating of the soul (collective memories) that distinguish a resurrected X-men and Sinister’s clones. A clone has no memories beyond their point of creation where a resurrected mutant can recall there whole life, up to latest backup which is usually only a loss of hours.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    4,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilisk View Post
    The resurrection process has two parts. The creation of a body and a restoring of the collective essence of a person or their soul. The body is nothing more than a clone but it is the integrating of the soul (collective memories) that distinguish a resurrected X-men and Sinister’s clones. A clone has no memories beyond their point of creation where a resurrected mutant can recall there whole life, up to latest backup which is usually only a loss of hours.
    To say memories make up souls seems like a reach. Marvel has established many thing 1 heaven & hell are very much so real in their world, Kurt himself has been to both, 2 souls are very much so a real thing & have been shown to move on to the afterlife on numerous occasions when they die.

    So after saying all that is this method just cloning....


  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    4,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    To say memories make up souls seems like a reach. Marvel has established many thing 1 heaven & hell are very much so real in their world, Kurt himself has been to both, 2 souls are very much so a real thing & have been shown to move on to the afterlife on numerous occasions when they die.

    So after saying all that is this method just cloning....

    But like other people have mentioned that’s not always how resurrection is treated in the MU. After Secret Wars pretty much everyone besides a select few were recreated and we have no confirmation if they have the original souls or new souls. Migrants from the Ultimate Universe even had a bunch of their memories changed.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •