Is the mutant resurrection method just cloning?

[Kingdom X]

I cannot believe that after more than a year we continue with this denial.

Honestly though. If there ends up being a twist where Sinister messed with the protocols or somebody sabotaged Cerebro, then fine, but I don't see the point of mulling over this over and over.

[Dcnewb]

The fact is...none of the mutants who've died and been brought back over the many decades...Xavier, Jean, Kurt, Logan, Betsy, Illyana etc etc etc are existing in their original bodies, then to now. Yet for all those years (pre-HiX-Man) no reader had any issues with any of them being other than who they were written to be.

Now it's "These clones are not my X-Men!!!"

They weren't your X-Men 25 years ago.

No, as long as their soul is inhabiting their new body then they are not clones (in terms of being a seperate entity than the original)

Ben Reilly is a clone
Resurrected Jean post-Dark Phoenix is not a clone

[Dcnewb]

I see what you did there...

So the real question here is does it matter? What is difference between

-a person dies his "soul" leaves his body, the body is destroyed. At some point later a new body is created and they put soul back in
-a person dies, a clone of them is created with every memory up until the second they died

I mean obviously I explained the difference what I am asking, If you didn't know the process does it matter which happens? The answer is no. As human we want to ourselves beyond being data but if you have a computer get a virus you have to wipe the hard drive. Do you have a different computer now because it is wiped? When you restore all information from your back up do you stop think you have a different computer now? No

I am asking why does it matter? You have the original copy and a burnt copy on same exact style of disc. You put them in storage something happens and one of them is destroyed inside. Does it matter which one is the copy?

In that scenario the soul exists independently of the clone which makes them two seperate entities and therefore not the same person. That’s why it matters.

[Dcnewb]

And cells in the human body are constantly replaced, to the extent that in four years every single cell in the body has been replaced. If the “hardware” has changed completely, is it really the same person (Google Trigger’s Broom)? Do you really have continuity of “soul” from the person who went to sleep yesterday, or do you only think you do because your hardware brain cells hold memories of that day? (You certainly have no memory of ever not being alive) What, then, even is continuity of consciousness?

It’s every 7 years, afaik...
But that theory is great and all, but at the end of the day if we’re a completely different being.. then this just backs up the fact that “clones” are not the same as the original. This in turn proves that there indeed is a significant difference which is worth arguing about since the deceased character would not be same person as the resurrected unless the same soul is embodying the new body.

The real life examples you used make sense, but due to the lack of evidence or proof we can’t really do much about it, but in Marvel, if there’s evidence and proof, then like
I’ve mentioned many times now - in the case of Ben Reilly and Peter Parker, if they are indeed just as valid as being the same person then why do they have different names? Why isn’t Parker accountable for Reilly’s actions and vice versus? Why do we need seperate stories or issues for each character? Why can’t we just liberally exchange them with each other in the same story and call it a day?
We don’t do that because logically makes zero sense to do so.

[Killerbee911]

In that scenario the soul exists independently of the clone which makes them two seperate entities and therefore not the same person. That’s why it matters.

So let just get it out of the way the fiction already explains that "soul" is part of the equation in this that is why they aren't clones.

Now back to my point "What does it matter". If it is not told anybody, Nobody cares about the distinction. Your whole argument about difference comes down to supposed "mystical" bar code otherwise everything is exactly the same. The fiction is explaining there is more than one way to get back that "mystical" bar code the X-men process is different but end result is the same.

[Devaishwarya]

Fortunately all the character I genuinely give a **** about have managed to escape this process so I don't care one way or another. That being said for those who have attachments to certain characters the idea that the character they liked just "died" because the writers are cheap & abuse the "ressurection" process for kicks might give a **** because their personally invested.

Let's take Betsy, for discussion's sake...the last time she was in her original body was before she went through the Siege Perilous in 1989. She was killed at least three times (not counting FotM resurrection by Roma) first by Vargas and resurrected by Jamie, then by Sapphire Styx and she recreated (a copy of) her own body (the original was lost when Revanche succumbed to the Legacy Virus). Then most recently in XoS and brought back to life in Excalibur. The only constant maintained throughout those life-death-resurrection journeys is that her soul was always Betsy's and the entire readership accepted it/her as such.

So...either they're woefully unaware of comic book history with regards to their favourite character(s), or they don't understand How Comics Work, or they're being very selective with their angst and ire towards HiX-Man and Co...for "reasons". In which case, their "personal investment" is somewhat suspect.

[Dcnewb]

Let's take Betsy, for discussion's sake...the last time she was in her original body was before she went through the Siege Perilous in 1989. She was killed at least three times (not counting FotM resurrection by Roma) first by Vargas and resurrected by Jamie, then by Sapphire Styx and she recreated (a copy of) her own body (the original was lost when Revanche succumbed to the Legacy Virus). Then most recently in XoS and brought back to life in Excalibur. The only constant maintained throughout those life-death-resurrection journeys is that her soul was always Betsy's and the entire readership accepted it/her as such.

So...either they're woefully unaware of comic book history with regards to their favourite character(s), or they don't understand How Comics Work, or they're being very selective with their angst and ire towards HiX-Man and Co...for "reasons". In which case, their "personal investment" is somewhat suspect.

I’m not quite sure I understand where you’re coming from.
If Betsy still has the same soul / consciousness then despite which bodies she’s in, she’s still the same Betsy.
But if this new method doesn’t involve the soul (which has been established that it’s not the case), then their angst is valid

[Dcnewb]

So let just get it out of the way the fiction already explains that "soul" is part of the equation in this that is why they aren't clones.

Now back to my point "What does it matter". If it is not told anybody, Nobody cares about the distinction. Your whole argument about difference comes down to supposed "mystical" bar code otherwise everything is exactly the same. The fiction is explaining there is more than one way to get back that "mystical" bar code the X-men process is different but end result is the same.

Defining soul as the character’s immortal consciousness / sentience then it does matter. Sure if it’s not stated then nobody knows, but the fact that this thread is stating it and are aware of the implications then it does matter. Being oblivious to a fact doesn’t make it any less true.

Going back (yet again) to Ben Reilly - why can he be considered a copy/clone and the resurrected characters in this current run aren’t? What separates a cloned Reilly from a resurrected character??

[Devaishwarya]

I’m not quite sure I understand where you’re coming from.
If Betsy still has the same soul / consciousness then despite which bodies she’s in, she’s still the same Betsy.
But if this new method doesn’t involve the soul (which has been established that it’s not the case), then their angst is valid

My point is...some readers here (clearly don't know their favourite charcater's history) are now decrying the resurrection protocols and basically denouncing the characters as clones/"not the real X-Men" which is erroneous because this new method (as with all the others in the past) does involve the original soul. There is no "If" about it. So their angst is invalid.

My point is...They were willing to accept Betsy as Betsy all these past years, even in different bodies, but with the same soul...what is the difference now? What makes Betsy (and every one else who've been through the resurrection protocols) unacceptable clones?

To answer the initial question...going by what we've just said...No. the resurrection protocols is not "just" cloning. Eventhough it involves a cloned body. (Which historically speaking is par the course for 90% of the MU heroes...and is universally accepted and understood, just not by a few.)

[jwatson]

Just to add some canon to the situation since this has been addressed in Valkeyrie and The green door from hulk and the pods on krakoa being specifically mentioned.

deathmutants00.jpgdeathmutants01.jpgdeathmutants02.jpg

So the real question would be if they are clones why did them coming back cause death to become sick. Another question would be if they are clones when death healed herself and let them go from her process, where are their souls?

[Dcnewb]

My point is...some readers here (clearly don't know their favourite charcater's history) are now decrying the resurrection protocols and basically denouncing the characters as clones/"not the real X-Men" which is erroneous because this new method (as with all the others in the past) does involve the original soul. There is no "If" about it. So their angst is invalid.

They were willing to accept Betsy as Betsy all these past years, even in different bodies...what is the difference now? What makes Betsy (and every one else who've been through the resurrection protocols) unacceptable clones?

I can’t speak on behalf of everybody else. But for me, now that it’s established that the soul is factored in this method then this entire “problem” is a non issue for me anymore, because to me, as long as the soul has transferred through then it’s still the same person.

If they still are upset despite the above then I agree with you.

[Journey]

My point is...some readers here (clearly don't know their favourite charcater's history) are now decrying the resurrection protocols and basically denouncing the characters as clones/"not the real X-Men" which is erroneous because this new method (as with all the others in the past) does involve the original soul. There is no "If" about it. So their angst is invalid.

They were willing to accept Betsy as Betsy all these past years, even in different bodies, but with the same soul...what is the difference now? What makes Betsy (and every one else who've been through the resurrection protocols) unacceptable clones?

Where has it been discussed this process involves souls? These people are husk empty shells when they come out the egg & then Charles puts all their memories from up until a certain point into the husk that's it no concept of retrieving their souls is apart of the process. Egg makes the egg for fertilizing, Proteus & Josh do the heavy lifting of recreating the body, the 1 girl ages the body up to appropriate time, Hope enhances their powers so they can get the job done. Nothing about any of their powers touches upon the souls. This fact is doubled down cause you have Kurt questioning about the soul aspect during the first Crucible issue.

[Devaishwarya]

So...just to be clear...you're saying that every one on Krakoa who've been through the RPs don't have souls?

[Journey]

So...just to be clear...you're saying that every one on Krakoa who've been through the RPs don't have souls?

I'm saying their clones their OG souls have moved on cause in their RP no mutant is capable/in charge of retrieving it even though I'm sure someone on that island is capable of doing that. Now whether clones have souls is debatable & IDC to really discuss. But back to the original question "are they clones? Answer is...

[Devaishwarya]

It's been clearly stated that their souls have not moved on but...Understood.