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  1. #61
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    The typically fan overreaction imo "The Phoenix" which has been in some terrible X-men stories can't be used now in some terrible Avenger stories? Apocalypse and Phoenix might be two of the most overrated concepts in X-men lore. Nothing has touch the heights of the Dark Phoenix saga and I would be with people on this if the Phoenix was being used in these all time classic stories but no most phoenix stories since has been bad or average. The best thing to happen to Phoenix is that has been removed from the X-men franchise and writers can't try to write their bad phoenix stories as X-men stories.

    As for Echo it is nice that Native American and disabled character is getting some spotlight. The only downside for Echo is that Phoenix powers always go away at some point and if this status with her becomes popular her regular powerset doesn't even come close. But other than that Marvel has made this character the one of the highest profile in the Avengers book with this move. Also Echo is in the Hawkeye Disney plus show and She is getting her own spin off show. So for the people who are thinking this a flash in the pan move they are big things going on for the character.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 04-08-2021 at 04:19 AM.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    I honestly don't care about anything Jason Aaron does anymore.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    I think the only thing worse than X-Books retroactively running the Phoenix Saga by making the Phoenix a mundane prop for mundane stories is when other books do it.

  4. #64

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    I don't know much about Echo. But if she can handle the Phoenix Force, more power to her.

    Just keep the Phoenix away from the X-Books for the foreseeable future. King In Black already proved that Jean doesn't need the Phoenix anymore. And if this can help raise Echo's profile, I'm perfectly fine with that.
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  5. #65
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I'm just tired of the Phoenix, no matter who has it.

    I'd be okay if they gave it back to Rachael, but it they're not doing that, it just needs to go back into space for a while and disappear.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The typically fan overreaction imo "The Phoenix" which has been in some terrible X-men stories can't be used now in some terrible Avenger stories? Apocalypse and Phoenix might be two of the most overrated concepts in X-men lore. Nothing has touch the heights of the Dark Phoenix saga and I would be with people on this if the Phoenix was being used in these all time classic stories but no most phoenix stories since has been bad or average. The best thing to happen to Phoenix is that has been removed from the X-men franchise and writers can't try to write their bad phoenix stories as X-men stories.

    As for Echo it is nice that Native American and disabled character is getting some spotlight. The only downside for Echo is that Phoenix powers always go away at some point and if this status with her becomes popular her regular powerset doesn't even come close. But other than that Marvel has made this character the one of the highest profile in the Avengers book with this move. Also Echo is in the Hawkeye Disney plus show and She is getting her own spin off show. So for the people who are thinking this a flash in the pan move they are big things going on for the character.
    I am not against having different hosts but I prefer that when they do it, they should have quick cycles for the bird to land on someone that is worthy to hold for a while. I would like Marvel to stick with one person so it doesn't keep diluting the stories with a cosmic entity OP. Instead, they need to work on making it more of a story (make it more believable with story conflict and character growth) and not who will get this next to bump up a character's role in Avengers or even X-Men.

    I am truly hoping the MCU Phoenix introduction is not through Echo but instead as a show/movie with the X-Men/Hellfire club etc. I think Echo is an awesome character but I hope they don't introduce the Phoenix through her in Hawkeye without the X-Men first. The X-Men are already bought, I want showrunners to stop using X-Men powers sets before they dilute things further. Might as well introduce mutants first rather than change already set comic storylines to cater to MCU viewers.

    Maybe I am just salty of waiting on movies and shows that keep introducing new characters rather than fan favorite mutants
    Last edited by porcelainfire; 04-08-2021 at 09:04 AM.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member Krakoa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    It's bad.But it confirms to me that echo will be coming to the MCU.At this point Phoenix force is overused so much that I am indifferent to it.More mad at the Thor being phoenix's son.Can't wait for the awkward Jean/Logan/Thor/Cyclops.
    Well, yeah, she was cast and officially announced for Hawkeye.

  8. #68
    BANNED davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I honestly don't care about anything Jason Aaron does anymore.
    Agreed. Other than Jane Thor his work is...yeah.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    You forgot Firebird. While not psychic power, she does manifest a Firebird and is Native American.
    She’s Latina
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    That's the Avengers for you. It's what they always do because their books are so goddamn dull with one spectacular arc every 100 issues surrounded by a mire of ****. I mean let's see, things the Avengers have tried to take and dilute from the X-Men:

    * Magneto
    * Sentinels
    * Beast
    * Jean Grey
    * Shi'ar
    * Wolverine
    * Phoenix

    Like, I get it. The Avengers' individual series are so much better - Thor, Iron Man, Captain America - you can list amazing arcs and runs from each but read those first twenty issues of Avengers - they're somehow worse than the first twenty of X-Men. Half of their threats are by villains seeking to beat them for the sake of beating them because they're the Avengers - even though they haven't actually done anything! When the founding Avengers leave, it doesn't get much better: Captain America is a negligent jerk, Scarlet Witch is useless, Quicksilver is fast but not really and Hawkeye is an *******. Then Giant-Man rejoins as Goliath and he's a jerk and the Wasp joins Scarlet Witch in being useless. What happens then? Hercules joins and he single handedly makes the Avengers more useless than when Thor was around.

    Hey, I'm sorry, I know that the Skrull/Kree War was an amazing arc and I respect it as such. It deserves the praise it gets. But don't forget, it also TOOK THE MAIN CONCEPTS FROM FANTASTIC FOUR. Just like it attempted to take Fantastic Four villains like Diablo and Dr. Doom before this.

    And the worst part about it is this, if the Avengers stuck to Thor villains or Iron Man villains and such it'd be fine - because those are the Avengers. But when you have the Avengers fighting Sentinels and Larry Trask or them being the ones who rediscover Jean Grey, it really bears the question, wouldn't you rather read this stuff in an X-Men book?
    Come on now. The only time Beast was EVER cool was when he was with the Avengers.
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I honestly don't care about anything Jason Aaron does anymore.
    This is the biggest lost for me. While i didn't like his X-men stuff his Thor stuff was top notch but maybe it was just lightning in a bottle. And the first arc or two of his avengers i was all in and then around issue 19/20 i don't know what happened.
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    I'll say it again....

    THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN BONITA!!!!!!!
    TO KNOW HER IS TO FEAR HER: JESSICA DREW THE SPIDER-WOMAN
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    I don't like the Phoenix being connected to the Avengers. I only like the Phoenix connected to Jean Grey or Rachel Summers and I prefer Claremont's version and Grant Morrison's version of the Phoenix. I never liked the Phoenix stuff from Alan Davis' Excalibur either.

    However it is what it is and the Phoenix has been a cluster for a very long time. I just laugh at myself for being convinced after the Morrison run that the Phoenix was finally corrected and I thought that it was going to be a concept that remained with Jean. But such is comics. I do not know much about Echo but I'm sure she can be a great character. I'm just not invested in it anymore. To have so many Phoenix avatars in the X-Men (Jean, Rachel, Maddie, Quire, Hope, the Phoenix 5 [yuck lol], Wolverine [ugh!]...) for it now to be an Avengers thing just feels wrong.

    I think the Phoenix could have worked well being tied to evolution and would explain the affinity for mutants.

    Phoenix was the perfect look and codename for Jean imo but again we just got to get over it.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
    Not that I actually want this to happen, but if you WERE gonna try and tie Phoenix to the Avengers, Firebird is 1000% a better choice....before the Solo Avengers story where she was revealed to have been empowered by a failed alien experiment she was strongly hinted to be tied to the Phoenix Force - she got her powers when Jean died on the moon IIRC, she's functionally immortal for no apparent reason and she has a mystical element to her powers which could very easily be revealed as being based in psionics. She's also a devout Christian (and not the hatemongering kind you generally get when it comes to mutant stories) so there would be some legitimate arcs to explore with how she comes to terms with her Phoenix powers and her religious background.
    Tell me more...

    - did they actually align Jean’s death and Bonita gaining her powers storywise or are you just saying these two things happened around the same time?

    - I’m not familiar with any mystical element to Bonita’s powers. Where can I read more about this?
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Celestialbodies's Avatar
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    I implore anyone who hasn't to read the issue it is literally the most contrived forced nonsense I've read in quite some time. I have limited experience with Echo but here Aaron literally throws several plot points at the Phoenix Force being Thors mother, and some nonsensical contest where apparently fighting is how the PF deems a host worthy.

    Then at the end of the issue without playing any role or substance Echo is simply made the new host. No real rhyme or reason Aaron adds a few panels of indifferent diatribe then there you have it Echo is the Phoenix for reasons doesn't even make sense in the context of her history. Moreover I can't speak for indigenous people but how it tied the Phoenix Force into her culture seemed hamfisted imo.

    The entire story reads like fanfiction, Marvel continues to think you can attach the PF to anyone and they'll be popular which tells me fundamental they have no idea why the original story is remembered 40 years and much of its history is not.

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