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  1. #1
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Default eye opening interview with Chris Terrio regarding BvS and Justice League

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...v-superman/amp


    Nothing earth shattering really, but it's interesting that for all the hand wringing and anger levied at Zack Snyder and Terrio over BvS being too dark and Warners trying retroactively to pin all of that on Snyder, Terrio seems to confirm it was the studio themselves that pushed FROM THE START a dark tone and direction. If anything it seems Terrio and a lesser extent Snyder kept the movie from being darker than what we saw.

    For instance, according to Terrio,Warners was pushing for Batman branding criminals and wanted the movie to end with Batman branding Luthor. Terrio and Snyder gave in on allowing the branding,but fought the studio over Batman not learning and still continuing the behavior. They also apparently literally wanted Superman to actually kill and reign fire on the Muslim village when the terrorists kidnapped Lois Lane. Yes...in Warners original vision of BvS,Superman actually did what Lex Luthor attempted to frame Superman with in the final film.

    With all the heat Snyder gets over making Superman and Batman grim dark, according to Terrio, what Warner Bros wanted before they decided retroactively they didn't, was much much darker and anethetical to these characters than what made it to screen. If anything Snyder and Terrio may have averted a complete disaster.

    It also makes me wonder if the destruction porn in MOS was less a Snyder thing and more of a WB studio note given one of the biggest criticisms of Superman Returns was the lack of Action set pieces and the lack of Superman punching stuff.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 04-08-2021 at 05:41 PM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    It sounds like Snyder was hired precisely because he had a track record of "dark" movies and when he didn't go far enough in the studio's mind, they made some "suggestions". Keep in mind, studio people are not comic book people. They see a success (like, say, the Nolan Batman movies) they want a repeat of that success. So when it came time to make a Superman movie, their first thought was probably something along the lines of "Well, it worked for Batman, why not do the same thing with Superman?" completely misunderstanding why the Nolan movies were so successful in the first place.
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  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Doesn’t say Snyder disagreed with anything but the branding, and given what Snyder himself has told us about his plans and choices he’s made, I’m very doubtful you can lay all the blame at WB’s feat. Snyder wanted Superman to kill Zod, and during MoS Nolan basically got Snyder full creative freedom to do what he wanted. Everything you see in MoS is all him. Nothing about the dark tone or edge in BvS feels out of place from Snyder either, especially given some of the idiotic ideas he championed (Supercuck, fridging Lois, Eisenberg Luthor, etc).

    The destruction porn was the fault of both sides. Snyder clearly loves that stuff and WB definitely wanted more action after Returns which wasn’t a bad call, just executed poorly.

    I’m glad Terrio acknowledged that the title “BvS: DoJ” was stupid as hell though. Too bad he didn’t admit “Martha” was a dumb moment as well
    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    It sounds like Snyder was hired precisely because he had a track record of "dark" movies and when he didn't go far enough in the studio's mind, they made some "suggestions". Keep in mind, studio people are not comic book people. They see a success (like, say, the Nolan Batman movies) they want a repeat of that success. So when it came time to make a Superman movie, their first thought was probably something along the lines of "Well, it worked for Batman, why not do the same thing with Superman?" completely misunderstanding why the Nolan movies were so successful in the first place.
    They wanted Nolan to direct the reboot so from the start they wanted something similar in tone to the Nolan movies. Honestly Nolan wouldn’t have done a bad job, he disagreed with Snyder & Goyer on several choices they made such as the killing of Zod.
    Last edited by Vordan; 04-08-2021 at 06:35 PM.
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  4. #4
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    The first script was written by Snyder and Goyer.

    WB wanted to go with Snyder's dark vision of the DCU because they wanted another Dark Knight trilogy but backed away when Snyder proved he didn't have the talent of Nolan.

    This makes me even angrier at WB for choosing Snyder for MOS.

  5. #5
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Doesn’t say Snyder disagreed with anything but the branding, and given what Snyder himself has told us about his plans and choices he’s made, I’m very doubtful you can lay all the blame at WB’s feat. Snyder wanted Superman to kill Zod, and during MoS Nolan basically got Snyder full creative freedom to do what he wanted. Everything you see in MoS is all him. Nothing about the dark tone or edge in BvS feels out of place from Snyder either, especially given some of the idiotic ideas he championed (Supercuck, fridging Lois, Eisenberg Luthor, etc).

    The destruction porn was the fault of both sides. Snyder clearly loves that stuff and WB definitely wanted more action after Returns which wasn’t a bad call, just executed poorly.

    I’m glad Terrio acknowledged that the title “BvS: DoJ” was stupid as hell though. Too bad he didn’t admit “Martha” was a dumb moment as well


    They wanted Nolan to direct the reboot so from the start they wanted something similar in tone to the Nolan movies. Honestly Nolan wouldn’t have done a bad job, he disagreed with Snyder & Goyer on several choices they made such as the killing of Zod.
    Oh for sure, much of MOS was Goyer and Snyder,but WB signed off on it and encouraged it. It seems though that when MOS didn't net them the billion dollars they'd assumed they would get,Warners doubled down on the dark and there were studio mandated things and notes that Snyder and Goyer wrote the original version of BvS around. That's the version where Superman was going to trash the Muslim village and Batman would be branding crooks from start to finish with no character arc. Warners it seemed wanted a mindless grim dark movie where two overly dark versions of Superman and Batman fought.

    Terio and Snyder rewrote the draft into what became the ultimate cut of BvS where there was actually motivations for all the characters involved and an attempt to add meat to the story...much of which WB cut out and hacked up to get to the abomination that made it into theaters. WB more or less got their grim and dark mindless batman and Superman fight movie...and when it fell below expectations, WB covered their butts,attempted to act like Snyder and Terrio were the reason they failed and decided as film was already rolling on JL that what they really wanted after all was a Marvel movie. By hook or crook they were determined to get just that and that's how we got Josstice League.

    Yeah,Snyder has some bad ideas (the Batman and Lois stuff in Snyders original JL 2 and 3 pitch) and much of what we saw in MOS and BvS was stuff he thought up,but I'd say the DCEU 's ultimate failure until Wonder Woman, and the checkered history that led to Superman Returns before it which basically paved way for the Zack Snyder films,largely does lie at the feet of the sheer meddling and incompetence at WB regarding the DC properties.

    One interesting thing to gleen from the article, the Zack Snyder cut of Justice League seems more to be script wise,more Chris Terrio and less Zack Snyder if Terrio's comments are to be believed. Thus the slightly lighter tone and the more hopeful narrative all the way around. It seems with that movie,Terrio handled the script (based on story concepts from he and Snyder) and Snyder the visual element. Explains why ZLJL is the most balanced film of the trilogy.

    That's why I'd be ok with the Snyderverse continuing in some form...as long as someone else does the heavy lifting on the script and he focusing on the visual elements.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  6. #6
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    “I’ve been working with the director to bring a voice of conscience and sanity to the almost perversely dark film you’ve been developing for years, but I’m the problem here?”
    I don't what this entails.And I am never going to understand what's grim dark about man of steel.It's just serious,is all.Superman is powers is superstrength.He always broke stuff.Right from inception.Him killing zod is not that original either.The only thing about the zod fight is that it's non-stop and exhausting.It was kinda cgi-fest emotional weight started to get lost.But,combing bruce persepective with the mos makes it far better.But the best scene for me in mos is this and ofcourse the urban myth part.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-09-2021 at 01:21 AM.
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  7. #7
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    So it was everyone's fault. That doesn't surprise me.

    But it is what it is. I'm not a fan of Snyder, but he was hired to do a job and that's what he did. The studio has a final say on everything so if they didn't think something would work, they wouldn't have let him do it.

    Did the studio ever publicly blame Snyder or Terrio? That sounds like a more behind-the-scenes thing (which still isn't cool) but Terrio makes it sound like the studio was ruining his name publicly. I mean, they BOTH still got hired after MoS after all, and WB was fully committed to Snyder and Terrio's vision until Snyder had to bow-out. It's not cool that the studio messed up JL the way they did, but it's not like they ditched them the moment MoS didn't live up to their expectations like Marvel did with Thor: The Dark World.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-09-2021 at 01:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    One thing that's abundantly clear is that WB doesn't know what the heck they are doing and no one within the power structure there has any sort of vision other than dollar signs. Say one will about Snyder,the man is not a hack. He seemed to be the only one making these films that actually had some passion and a vision of where he wanted the universe to go. It obviously wasn't for a large enough audience, but at least he had a plan,even if WB kept sabotaging him at the end of the day.

    From all that's come out in just the last few weeks, the true "hacks" are the suits at Warners who thought it was a good idea to go all dark on all it's characters, hired a guy known for doing that sort of thing,then when the second film in this thing falls bellow expectations( in large part due to their own meddling,) they decide a 180 was needed and try to blatantly copy Marvel,complete with hiring a guy from Marvel to force one thing to become another over the course of,like,6 months and a shoddy production. All because the same said executives wanted to collect their sweet sweet bonuses.

    WB is a dumpster fire when it comes to anything not Batman in regards to DC. There's not that much evidence that has changed. It's a high possibility that things could be even worse behind the scenes.

    No wonder Affleck left and Cavill is demanding more say so and higher pay for him to return as Superman. It's a mess.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 04-09-2021 at 06:08 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  9. #9
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    “I’ve been working with the director to bring a voice of conscience and sanity to the almost perversely dark film you’ve been developing for years, but I’m the problem here?”
    I don't what this entails.And I am never going to understand what's grim dark about man of steel.It's just serious,is all.Superman is powers is superstrength.He always broke stuff.Right from inception.Him killing zod is not that original either.The only thing about the zod fight is that it's non-stop and exhausting.It was kinda cgi-fest emotional weight started to get lost.But,combing bruce persepective with the mos makes it far better.But the best scene for me in mos is this and ofcourse the urban myth part.
    There is a lot of good in MOS. A fantastic cast. A unique approach and a lot of potential involved in creating a strong new mythology for Superman that wasn't tied directly to Richard Donner and 1978. Where the movie went off the rails was the final act and the exhausting bombast it entailed.

    I've said it before and I will say it again, Chris Nolan,David Goyer and Zack Snyder when making MOS ,did not go Into this with the intent of plunging head long into Justice League. They started out making a stand alone Superman trilogy that could conceivably plant some seeds here and there to eventually fill out a universe,but it was supposed to be Superman's answer to the Dark Knight Trilogy. Something changed during MOS post production and things shifted to a Superman/Batman movie for the sequel leading to Justice League. The studio wanted that sweet Avengers money and they wanted it now,building a coherent universe or actually continuing the story began in MOS be damned.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  10. #10
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    As far as I remember, the script for BvS was developed by David Goyer and Zack Snyder before Chris Terrio came on board,
    so I wouldn't count Zack Snyder out on the part about Batman branding people and blame that entirely on WB.
    At least David Goyer had some plans for Superman, and when Goyer left the project, everything went out of the window,
    Snyder and Terrio planned for Superman to be the villain for JL2, and the hero for JL3, as an arc for Superman, that's some weird planning right there.

  11. #11
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    And Terrio is also the writer of Rise of Skywalker, so not to say he can't write, his writings are definitely questionable.

  12. #12
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    Without sounding too political, it’s not lost on me that much like a drone, Superman sort of comes from out of nowhere from the sky and vanquishes his enemies and then flies off with no consequences. That may not have been an angle on Superman that people wanted to see and wanted to think about.
    See, that's where he missed the point of Superman.

  13. #13
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    One thing that's abundantly clear is that WB doesn't know what the heck they are doing and no one within the power structure there has any sort of vision other than dollar signs.
    Since they didn't even have a Wonder Woman script or have her personality nailed down before they started writing BvS, this does seem to be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Since they didn't even have a Wonder Woman script or have her personality nailed down before they started writing BvS, this does seem to be the case.
    Didn't they have a version of her chopping people's head off and holding their severed head in the Crimean War, at least that was Zack Snyder's original version.

  15. #15
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalai View Post
    Didn't they have a version of her chopping people's head off and holding their severed head in the Crimean War, at least that was Zack Snyder's original version.
    Yes, yes it was. That was the movie he pitched but Patty hated it (another problem with WB they didn't get all the directors in a room to talk this out before Snyder wrote his story outline, and Snyder is no Kevin Feige). Lucky they changed it, but you can see some problems with her characterization between films.
    I don't think Snyder understood he was putting Wonder Woman in such a bad light by having her not be a superhero for 100 years until she gets inspired by two completely strangers. He wanted her too be a more jaded character who spent almost 70 years hunting Ares from battlefield to battlefield and was about to give up until she met Steve. Steve was supposed to convince her humanity was still good, since she started to think humanity was the problem and not Ares, but after she kills him she gives up on humanity anyway. (Something like that).

    Luckily Snyder seems like a nice guy and was open to the changes, but the character class still shows between films (primarily in the action, with Snyder being more over-the-top and such).

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