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  1. #31

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    It really is an amazing thing that the DCEU was founded on the idea of being this grand multi-movie arc for Superman that got high-jacked by Batman....yet, as of now, the most successful characters to have emerged from it are Wonder Woman and Aquaman--two characters they had no long-term plans for and in fact intended to have killed in the Justice League sequel until Flash time traveled them back.

    I said this in another forum, but the lessons to be learned from all this:
    1) don't rush your shared universe
    2) be willing to adjust the story based on audience response
    and
    3) stop assuming Batman and Superman (mostly Batman) are the only characters who matter
    Last edited by Guy_McNichts; 04-09-2021 at 09:27 PM.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  2. #32
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    It really is an amazing thing that the DCEU was founded on the idea of being this grand multi-movie arc for Superman that got high-jacked by Batman....yet, as of now, the most successful characters to have emerged from it are Wonder Woman and Aquaman--two characters they had no long-term plans for and in fact intended to have killed in the Justice League sequel until Flash time traveled them back.

    I said this in another forum, but the lessons to be learned from all this:
    1) don't rush your shared universe
    2) be willing to adjust the story based on audience response
    and
    3) stop assuming Batman and Superman (mostly Batman) are the only characters who matter
    The fact that Wonder Woman and Aquaman weren't central in the plans of the people shaping the DCEU (executives and creatives) is a probably yhe biggest reason they were successful. Both Jenkins and Wan were able to drive and give these characters a life, joy and direction that wasn't present in the central pieces of the DCEU, Batman and Superman.

    Sometimes flying under the radar is a good thing, like Hitman, Starman and other great comic runs have proved.

  3. #33
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    The fact that Wonder Woman and Aquaman weren't central in the plans of the people shaping the DCEU (executives and creatives) is a probably yhe biggest reason they were successful. Both Jenkins and Wan were able to drive and give these characters a life, joy and direction that wasn't present in the central pieces of the DCEU, Batman and Superman.

    Sometimes flying under the radar is a good thing, like Hitman, Starman and other great comic runs have proved.
    Expecting snyder to direct a swashbuckling hero would be too much.None,of his previous movies had any.The heroes had badass moments in things like 300.But,it was different.There is always this adultish vibes gore friendly vibe and things(people) getting broken.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Expecting snyder to direct a swashbuckling hero would be too much.None,of his previous movies had any.The heroes had badass moments in things like 300.But,it was different.There is always this adultish vibes gore friendly vibe and things(people) getting broken.
    Yes, but is not really about the swashbuckling and more about character. Snyder talks a lot about theme, he's always thinking about some epic story, with epic visual that will have a lot of philosophical things to say and expects it to replace character developtment, and it can work, I just feel that in the Snyderverse it didn't.
    Now James Wan, barely talks about theme or the philosophy of Aquaman, he just tell a story where the character have goals that conflict with other character goals and they fight about it, and it worked.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Yes, but is not really about the swashbuckling and more about character. Snyder talks a lot about theme, he's always thinking about some epic story, with epic visual that will have a lot of philosophical things to say and expects it to replace character developtment, and it can work, I just feel that in the Snyderverse it didn't.
    Now James Wan, barely talks about theme or the philosophy of Aquaman, he just tell a story where the character have goals that conflict with other character goals and they fight about it, and it worked.
    I re-watched Aquaman again the other night, and I was reminded just how fun it was and just embraced the character and mythos for what they are.

    Jesus, it can't be that hard to do it for Superman.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I re-watched Aquaman again the other night, and I was reminded just how fun it was and just embraced the character and mythos for what they are.

    Jesus, it can't be that hard to do it for Superman.
    They should take a page off Thor: Ragnarok and send Superman to space. It's probably the only thing that will be catch and different enough to create curiosity and excitment for the character among the general audience again. Just adapt Up in the Sky, it's so right for adaptation that it was probably a movie pitch.

  7. #37
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    It's honestly amazing we don't yet have a movie about Supwrman in space.

    Or one with Supergirl, for that matter

  8. #38
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Yes, but is not really about the swashbuckling and more about character. Snyder talks a lot about theme, he's always thinking about some epic story, with epic visual that will have a lot of philosophical things to say and expects it to replace character developtment, and it can work, I just feel that in the Snyderverse it didn't.
    Now James Wan, barely talks about theme or the philosophy of Aquaman, he just tell a story where the character have goals that conflict with other character goals and they fight about it, and it worked.
    You are assuming there isn't any character development.superman went from an alien hiding alone and scared to a guy saying "not impressed" to a "demon". Also, it's not like his story is finished.It was a series.Now,you might be saying superman didn't get enough screen time or wasn't central character in two.I can acknowledge that.But,then he has to setup other characters as well.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  9. #39
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You are assuming there isn't any character development.superman went from an alien hiding alone and scared to a guy saying "not impressed" to a "demon". Also, it's not like his story is finished.It was a series.Now,you might be saying superman didn't get enough screen time or wasn't central character in two.I can acknowledge that.But,then he has to setup other characters as well.
    That's what I'm saying too. Superman wasn't developt well enough, he was just different. While both Aquaman and Wonder Woman got a better focus and developtment in their movies.
    What was supposed to be a Superman movie, as Terrio himself said, was more about Batman with Superman having less line and screen time and dying in the end to further Batman's character arc. Then in Justice League he is a plot device, in a undeserved narrative about how the world was mourning him, and to again further Batman's character arc, plus he spend most of the movie dead or evil.

    Looking to Captain America again, it's impossible not to see how DC failed to set up Superman as an icon to the audience and other characters and instead kept hammering us with slow motion scenes of characters looking sadly at some piece of empty iconograth while some somber score played hoping it would get the job done.

  10. #40
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    That's what I'm saying too. Superman wasn't developt well enough, he was just different. While both Aquaman and Wonder Woman got a better focus and developtment in their movies.
    What was supposed to be a Superman movie, as Terrio himself said, was more about Batman with Superman having less line and screen time and dying in the end to further Batman's character arc. Then in Justice League he is a plot device, in a undeserved narrative about how the world was mourning him, and to again further Batman's character arc, plus he spend most of the movie dead or evil.

    Looking to Captain America again, it's impossible not to see how DC failed to set up Superman as an icon to the audience and other characters and instead kept hammering us with slow motion scenes of characters looking sadly at some piece of empty iconograth while some somber score played hoping it would get the job done.
    All I am saying is there is an arc and there is progression happening.
    Not really,bvs has a guy getting nuked by the people whom he protected.Bvs showed how Clark was saving people and had internal conflict regarding "saving farms causing death to Lana lang's horses "(it's regarding zod/Krypton being dead,the Africa incident..etc).He also had to come to terms what his limits when faced with another vigilante.Also,Bruce and Nietzschean shtick is basically the one in the wrong or antagonistic the entire movie.The movie was pro " there is larger reason for you being here Clark" .look how "Martha" saved the day or Lois coming right in time.Bruce and his "dieing in the gutter for no reason at all" nihlistic thought process lost.These things aren't nearly fleshed out.I will grant you that.The themes I mean.Snyder does this long drawn out movie.That's atleast coherent.When he is forced to cut things down it doesn't work.

    Cap had a full series.superman didn't get that luxury nor Snyder.As for slow motion and sad looks.It's his style.He can't something else.It's like asking me to play a guitar, when all I know is how to fence.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-10-2021 at 09:37 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Yeah, but does that style work for Superman?

    One of the problems I have with DCEU Superman is he barely talks to anyone after MoS. How will we know wht he wants and likea, and what his inner feelings are? Batman got so much dialogue, so why can't Superman.

    And barely having him in a 4 hour JL movie didn't work at all for me

  12. #42
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Beats me.The superman i like is more simple and was different.He beats up giant robots,lizards..etc.He was a badass champion like zorro.He Doesn't exist anymore.
    As for snyder's superman,He talks to Perry and other staff,the lady who's husband was branded by batman,he talks to an old man regarding batman's violent streak of vengeance,..etc.the others ofcourse the obvious like Martha and Lois.I would admit that super man's world is not that big and is more personal.If your asking for "follow me for I am hope" speeches or the Dad like speeches.There wasn't much.It was expected from the start that Clark won't be much in it(JL).But,the guy saved cyborg and was getting more comfortable with himself as he was finding more people like him.He came back and rediscovered himself.There is a signifance to Clark saving cyborg.Cyborg can't hide himself.Even though Clark was brave enough to be superman and take the hate.He also had the glasses as a protection and a chain.Also,this "superman is an authority figure who gives speeches" is just a modern nonsense after Donner movies.Siegel's superman didn't much give speeches nor max Fleischer's.The guy is called man of action.I for one could do without the speeches,unless of it's like cap's speech with "freedom is worth fighting for and I believe in individual" .
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-11-2021 at 12:50 AM.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  13. #43
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    It really is an amazing thing that the DCEU was founded on the idea of being this grand multi-movie arc for Superman that got high-jacked by Batman....yet, as of now, the most successful characters to have emerged from it are Wonder Woman and Aquaman--two characters they had no long-term plans for and in fact intended to have killed in the Justice League sequel until Flash time traveled them back.

    I said this in another forum, but the lessons to be learned from all this:
    1) don't rush your shared universe
    2) be willing to adjust the story based on audience response
    and
    3) stop assuming Batman and Superman (mostly Batman) are the only characters who matter
    Especially when you make Wonder Woman a more enjoyable and interesting character who faces an emotional dilemma more compelling than "Martha", and make Aquaman's whole world eye-candy with battle sharks and a Mary Poppins kranken.

    They could have found a way to mix everyone together for JL, but they just made everyone fit Batman's mold.

  14. #44
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    Yet Batman himself looked tired for most of the Snyder Cut.

    I really think Clark needed more everyday human-to-human interaction, not just slightly moping all the time

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Because Hacky Snyder saw Superman more of a symbol than an actual character. And not getting Superman right is ultimately the reason why the DCEU failed. Had Superman gotten another movie to further progress his character this might have been better. I saw the SJL and none of it feels earned. He f*cked up. And the shit heads suits aren't any better

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