DC and MC - What are your likes and dislikes?

[Vakanai]

The GoTG and Black Panther are vastly different in tones,

The Black Panther has scenes that are vastly different in tone. The movie as a whole? Not that far off from generic MCU film, which is where GotG orbits. One leans into the comedic elements, one has a few serious moments and scenes, but at the core they just aren't that different. As an entire experience, they share more tonal similarities than differences. In my opinion, you can differ on that (and go on and on about DC's serious tones as if Snyder still matters in anything).

(Also you are legit crazy if you think most of the complaints about the DCEU aren't piled on MoS/BvS/SS/JL - seriously, don't let your debates with Snyder fans color your views about which DCEU films actually get pissed on.)

[Vakanai]

If the MCU movies were all that similar, then the box office of the movies would be a lot lower as the audience would have had enough of watching the same style of film. It would be like watching a franchise where the original makes the most box office and each movie tends to decline. The majority of MCU movies are different enough otherwise there wouldn't be 22+ films and counting. The audiences don't like repetition that much.

Disagree. People in general prefer a comforting familiarness so long as it is of quality. It's why nostalgia is a huge thing. The MCU thrives on that. And there's only 3 films a year spaced apart - easy enough to not get too much at once. And there's nothing wrong with it. But if you think people crave things that are different, you have a higher opinion of humanity than most.

[Castle]

If the MCU movies were all that similar, then the box office of the movies would be a lot lower as the audience would have had enough of watching the same style of film. It would be like watching a franchise where the original makes the most box office and each movie tends to decline. The majority of MCU movies are different enough otherwise there wouldn't be 22+ films and counting. The audiences don't like repetition that much.

Oh dear, this is not how things works in Cooperate America. to be fair, What you said is the opposite of business and marketing. Disney has constructed a formula of all their franchises. this is why they all at least make a billion, even Rise of Skywalker and some of their live action Disney animated cartoons are still clearing a billion. Disney has got audiences that will always show up and for MCU and they have a now inbuilt very loyal fanbase. that is how they make money, it has nothing to do with the film making of their movies because their movies are all done the same way.

I know many fans of MCU that have said Captain America was just an advert for Endgame, or a complete unnecessary product and that movie cleared a billion, even made more than Wonder Woman 2017 and Wonder Woman is a far more iconic character than Captain Marvel but Captain Marvel success is now built on a big establishment, it is not about a film making landmark like when The Dark Knight cleared a billion for the first time as a comic book movie.

I think this always Box office argument for MCU is not a good reflection because it makes MCU look more cooperate factory done that it should be. MCU should be more comparable to the Batman film series but I guess that will be hard because the Batman series is a reflection more of a director's time on the series and a good artistic commentary on a franchise. Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher, Chris Nolan and Zack Snyder . All these directors brought something new and different to Batman films for better or worse. This is what it means to say not all Batman films are the same and every MCU movies are the same because they all follow the same formula. the directors of MCU are only secondary used.

[Castle]

I would think the ship has sailed, too. But if that means we would get a Jean Grey with more screen time I will not complain. But anything would be better than what we got in the Fox X-Men.

I say this with a heavy heart because I am an X-men fan but MCU X-Men is going to mediocre and be dismissed as nothing more but another generic Disney cooperate product because MCU has limited how to tell comic book movies on screen and Disney has said most comic book movies should be light hearted action comedy to appeal most to kids. This formula will fail with any X-Men series. It already failed in 1992 and it will fail in 2025.

Disney will unlikely reached the best heights of what fox did, this is pretty much fact now because Disney has said they cannot make an r rated film like Logan or a pg film like DOFP. if you read xmen comics or even know a lot about film making and comic book story telling or the technical aspect of comic books like VFX, Music score and cinematography, you would know that I am bluffing about this.

You are making things hard for MXU X-Men when it should not be harder than it already is, because that franchise is already in trouble even though we have not seen it yet.

[lowfyr]

Oh dear, this is not how things works in Cooperate America. to be fair, What you said is the opposite of business and marketing. Disney has constructed a formula of all their franchises. this is why they all at least make a billion, even Rise of Skywalker and some of their live action Disney animated cartoons are still clearing a billion. Disney has got audiences that will always show up and for MCU and they have a now inbuilt very loyal fanbase. that is how they make money, it has nothing to do with the film making of their movies because their movies are all done the same way.

I know many fans of MCU that have said Captain America was just an advert for Endgame, or a complete unnecessary product and that movie cleared a billion, even made more than Wonder Woman 2017 and Wonder Woman is a far more iconic character than Captain Marvel but Captain Marvel success is now built on a big establishment, it is not about a film making landmark like when The Dark Knight cleared a billion for the first time as a comic book movie.

I think this always Box office argument for MCU is not a good reflection because it makes MCU look more cooperate factory done that it should be. MCU should be more comparable to the Batman film series but I guess that will be hard because the Batman series is a reflection more of a director's time on the series and a good artistic commentary on a franchise. Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher, Chris Nolan and Zack Snyder . All these directors brought something new and different to Batman films for better or worse. This is what it means to say not all Batman films are the same and every MCU movies are the same because they all follow the same formula. the directors of MCU are only secondary used.

"nothing to do with the film making " So actors and directors and all the others who make the movies don't matter? For someone who is all about the art of moviemaking you are very quick with throwing derogatory terms at people who work hard to make this movies. To say nothing of the things you not very subtil imply about the people who like that movies.
Just say you do not like them but don't try to bolster your personal opinion with this stuff.

[lowfyr]

I say this with a heavy heart because I am an X-men fan but MCU X-Men is going to mediocre and be dismissed as nothing more but another generic Disney cooperate product because MCU has limited how to tell comic book movies on screen and Disney has said most comic book movies should be light hearted action comedy to appeals most to kids. This formula will fail with any X-Men series. It already failed in 1992 and it will fail in 2025.

Disney will unlikely reached the best heights of what fox did, this is pretty much fact now because Disney has said they cannot make an r rated film like Logan or a pg film like DOFP. if you read xmen comics or even know a lot about film making and comic book story telling or the technical aspect of comic books like VFX, Music score and cinematography, you would know that I am bluffing about this.

You are making things hard for MXU X-Men when it should not be harder than it already is, because that franchise is already in trouble even though we have not seen it yet.

"MCU X-Men is going to mediocre" I would like the lotto numbers from next week , if you go to the future next time, please.
"because Disney has said they cannot make an r rated film like Logan or a pg film like DOFP" that is not what they said.
"f you read xmen comics or even know a lot about film making and comic book story telling or the technical aspect of comic books like VFX, Music score and cinematography, you would know that I am bluffing about this." That sentence does not make any sense and not just in connection with the sentence before.

[BeastieRunner]

Fox X-Men were uneven at best. The first was Holy $#!+ X-Men on Film!!! X2 was great, X3 a train wreck, and then the uneven pattern continues.

Not a single one of them gets out of the popcorn movie mold until Logan. Which is pretentious action sci-fi that I sorely miss. It is not as good as it pretends to be. It does widen the genre in a good way. Now X2 really knocked out the cinematography with the White House Nightcrawler set piece but they never really did much to elevate supers again till the Quicksilver scene and Logan.

Iron Man, from a film standpoint, was the only Marvel film to elevate cinematography at the time. Black Panther and Captain Marvel broke and altered A LOT of film gaps for the better and cemented super hero fare as genre. Endgame was an old school Hollywood love letter to the spectacle of cinema. A modern Cleopatra in that regard. Civil War inverted the rising epic massive action set piece that was a staple of post sword and sandle epics into homage to a 1950s style Western intimate action scene.

Fox X-Men's magnum opus was a kick ass speedster scene, one of the best opening scenes in movie history, and perfect casting of Logan and Xavier.

MCU X-Men will be better. I have no worries. At worst, they will be above average visual spectacles with neat story beats and character moments.

I would be lying if I ignored the impact Fox X-Men had. Without Blade being awesome, X2 giving us our first deep super movie, Spider-Man 2 giving us one of the best super movies of all time ... We probably would never get to weep when we hear "I am Iron Man" for the last time.

They were foundational and gave more blueprints about what NOT to do than what to do. But they are there. To argue that they are the standard bearers is an interesting take when MCU owns so much of the subjective opinions (the critics) and the factual stats (like audience scores, BO money, and the like). I think there is plenty of room to like and enjoy them all.

That does not mean the X films are terrible or that the MCU is flawless. The MCU is however historic regardless of your opinion of quality. We might not ever see something so massive again.

The beauty of everything being so varied in the MCU is it has given a lot a people a taste of the interconnectedness we love about our hobby.

I would put a lot of DC, Marvel, and comic book films ahead of a lot of other drek that is out there.

I guess I am just excited to see things I love get popular.

[Castle]

"objectively " the joke got old a long time ago.
"I find statements like this desperate, not to mention harmful" as usual ironic statement coming from you.
And it is true the main X-Men movies are not something that someone would call in a good state. The last two movies were just more eye-opening about the bad parts that plagued the franchise from the beginning.

I will be putting fan war of aside and be looking at things objectively mostly with the truths and the facts of the events.

It is fact that New mutants and Dark Phoenix was a mess of a movie where Disney and Fox should get the blame because we dont know how both movies would have turned out if not for the push backs and constant reshoots because Fox was getting bought out and disney were looking for ways to wrap things up. now you can be an MCU fan and ignore this to blame it all on fox bUt the fact of the matter is that both the last films was a cooperate mess of two studios trying to merge themselves.

If you really want a final two movies for a series that started in 2000. try and use DOFP AND Logan and see how MCU measures up artistically?

And it is true the main X-Men movies are not something that someone would call in a good state. The last two movies were just more eye-opening about the bad parts that plagued the franchise from the beginning.

LOL, Again this has no truth to it because looking back at the the first X-Men film from 20 years, it was an unconventional comic book film and even those critics that praise MCU movies for been fun found a new respect for X-Men 1. the beginning of that movie started in nazi camps in a realistic world, which changed how to tell comic book movies on screen, It is still a land mark moment not to mention the kind of sophisticated story telling of that film where the main hero and supposedly villain don't even punch each other once but have their battles more from an intellectual mindset and it is not even a story about saving the world or stopping generic comic bookie villains, it was a story based on many common human themes of racism and prejudice and the lessons of wars like world war 2. compared that to MCU movies now where it is mostly driven by nothing more but action and cgi and jokes. It is not even close anymore.

While I get some hardcore mcu fans saying a film like xmen 1 was not done in good taste because it makes MCU action comedy look bad because xmen 1 was the film that made people take comic books very seriously and had main story arcs that was not about saving the entire universe, but please also remember, that Black Panther in truth did try to copy from X-Men with Killmonger and Black Panther as a another form of Xavier and Magneto but they never did it as well because MCU were not interested in writing a complex script of two supposed leaders because Disney has indeed water down marvel's story telling on films. Something Bob Iger did say in his book.

Things are not good already, I really don't want it get worse and when I read some things people reply to me about anything X-Men related, I get even more worried about MCU X-men.

[Castle]

[QUOTE]

Fox X-Men were uneven at best. The first was Holy $#!+ X-Men on Film!!! X2 was great, X3 a train wreck, and then the uneven pattern continues.

From a pure film making and story telling view and asking if the comic book genre can break new grounds like X-Men 1 and Logan did. MCU X-Men wont be better , on a pure logical probability, it is just not possible and this is because MCU cannot do many xmen stories like fox did without limitations and make it cookie-cutter, indifference from their formula.

Truthful Film making criticisms: MCU X-Men will also not give any director a chance to experiment creatively like Bryan Singer wanting to use more practical effects over CGI or relying more on hard drama and very complex adult themes to sell a comic film or heck a person like James Mangold who wanted go full western in Logan and up how to use cinemtotogahy in comic book movies or introduce a controversial character like X23 and make her appear even more savage than the comics.

I wish I did not have to say this but this is the reality now for X-Men in the MCU. You cannot get better by loosing creative thinking or just dumbing things down. forget comic book films, that is not just how life works in general.

It's hard to say X-Men 2 gave us our first deep comic movie but someone justify how a series like MCU that would never even have done a film as deep as X-Men 2 because Disney would have found X-Men 2 extremely against their light heated formula with a comic film that does not have a main message of buying your kids toys or not forgetting the next theme park opening at Disney land. for MCU to do better, they will factually have to change a lot and open more doors and opportunities for different kind of films. while many fans can have their opinions based on nothing more but superficial fan battles of Mrvel vs DC or Marvel vs Fox or Sony, however the logical physical metrics is not just not there to support this claim.

I believe Matt Reeves Batman can do better than Nolan's Batman or Burton Batman or even the great Bruce Timm's Batman because there are good sound artistic metrics to show since WB is not limiting anything with Batman on films and WB can stretch anything with Batman and take him and his world to new heights and different territories we saw this with The Joker 2019. This is not the same with MCU X-Men since MCU cannot even do Logan or X2, which in easiness where just good summaries of classic comics like God Loves, Man Kills and Old Man Logan/Death of Wolverine.

[lowfyr]

I will be putting fan war of aside and be looking at things objectively mostly with the truths and the facts of the events.

It is fact that New mutants and Dark Phoenix was a mess of a movie where Disney and Fox should get the blame because we dont know how both movies would have turned out if not for the push backs and constant reshoots because Fox was getting bought out and disney were looking for ways to wrap things up. now you can be an MCU fan and ignore this to blame it all on fox bUt the fact of the matter is that both the last films was a cooperate mess of two studios trying to merge themselves.

If you really want a final two movies for a series that started in 2000. try and use DOFP AND Logan and see how MCU measures up artistically?



LOL, Again this has no truth to it because looking back at the the first X-Men film from 20 years, it was an unconventional comic book film and even those critics that praise MCU movies for been fun found a new respect for X-Men 1. the beginning of that movie started in nazi camps in a realistic world, which changed how to tell comic book movies on screen, It is still a land mark moment not to mention the kind of sophisticated story telling of that film where the main hero and supposedly villain don't even punch each other once but have their battles more from an intellectual mindset and it is not even a story about saving the world or stopping generic comic bookie villains, it was a story based on many common human themes of racism and prejudice and the lessons of wars like world war 2. compared that to MCU movies now where it is mostly driven by nothing more but action and cgi and jokes. It is not even close anymore.

While I get some hardcore mcu fans saying a film like xmen 1 was not done in good taste because it makes MCU action comedy look bad because xmen 1 was the film that made people take comic books very seriously and had main story arcs that was not about saving the entire universe, but please also remember, that Black Panther in truth did try to copy from X-Men with Killmonger and Black Panther as a another form of Xavier and Magneto but they never did it as well because MCU were not interested in writing a complex script of two supposed leaders because Disney has indeed water down marvel's story telling on films. Something Bob Iger did say in his book.

Things are not good already, I really don't want it get worse and when I read some things people reply to me about anything X-Men related, I get even more worried about MCU X-men.

" putting fan war aside" good because this is not that. From my side at least.
"objectively mostly with the truths and the facts of the events." but "mostly" is even better than usual.
"this has no truth to it because looking back" So you can say with a straight face that the Fox X-Men did not have too much focus on certain characters for example?
Who they did that to changed but the problem was always there.

"some hardcore mcu fans saying a film like xmen 1 was not done in good taste because it makes MCU action comedy look bad"
So you are a mindreader now, too?

[WebLurker]

I will be putting fan war of aside and be looking at things objectively mostly with the truths and the facts of the events.

Ironically, my problem with your arguments is that this doesn't really happen.

[numberthirty]

...

I believe Matt Reeves Batman can do better than Nolan's Batman or Burton Batman or even the great Bruce Timm's Batman because there are good sound artistic metrics to show since WB is not limiting anything with Batman on films, WB can stretch anything with Batman and take him to new heights we saw this with The Joker 2019. This is not the same with MCU X-Men since MCU cannot even do Logan or an X2.

Just to point some things out about this assertion...

- Batman does not actually appear in Joker.

- It's kind of tough to take a character to new heights that does not actually appear in a film.

[Castle]

Ironically, my problem with your arguments is that this doesn't really happen.

Except it happened, This is the reason, you cannot debunk anything I said. I gave the low down of the mess of the Disney and Fox merge, after disney bought fox and how MCU in their later years chose to forgo the comic's tone to adapt a different theme that fitted more with disney using their movies more as an ad for theme parks than a quest to bring this stories to life from the comics.

How many people who like Marvel and DC equally but complained about Thor Ragnorok's tone and visual style are going to like the film even less after seeing What Snyder did with the JL cut? we comic fans said from the onset with thor 1 , that we like the idea that Thor can be the Lord of the rings of comics books.

" putting fan war aside" good because this is not that. From my side at least.
"objectively mostly with the truths and the facts of the events." but "mostly" is even better than usual.
"this has no truth to it because looking back" So you can say with a straight face that the Fox X-Men did not have too much focus on certain characters for example?
Who they did that to changed but the problem was always there.

"some hardcore mcu fans saying a film like xmen 1 was not done in good taste because it makes MCU action comedy look bad"
So you are a mindreader now, too?

When you end a movie like this where the two main heroes and villain never punch each other once in what is meant to be comic book film and somebody is now telling me, this is bad in a bigger time where the comic book genre is seen and heavily criticised more as nothing more but action and cgi with no substance, then there is a problem ahead. For whatever is coming next from any studio that thinks this is bad.

[lowfyr]

Except it happened, This is the reason, you cannot debunk anything I said. I gave the low down of the mess of the Disney and Fox merge, after disney bought fox and how MCU in their later years chose to forgo the comic's tone to adapt a different theme that fitted more with disney using their movies more as an ad for theme parks than a quest to bring this stories to life from the comics.

How many people who like Marvel and DC equally but complained about Thor Ragnorok's tone and visual style are going to like the film even less after seeing What Snyder did with the JL cut?



When you end a movie like this where the two main heroes and villain never punch each other once in what is meant to be comic book film and somebody is now telling me, this is bad in a bigger time where the comic book genre is seen and heavily criticised more as nothing more but action and cgi with no substance, then there is a problem ahead. For whatever is coming next from any studio that thinks this is bad.

Show me there I said that. But hey moving the goalposts is your thing as usual, so I don't expect an answer that will do that.

[Castle]

Just to point some things out about this assertion...

- Batman does not actually appear in Joker.

- It's kind of tough to take a character to new heights that does not actually appear in a film.

Just to further a truthful assertion. Joker is factually a batman universe character and his movie is still a batman world story even if Bruce wayne does not appear as Batman.He does not need too as there are many Joker comics, Batman also never appears. This is the same truthful way Venom 2018 is a Spiderman universe film even if Peter Parker never appears in the film and also the same truthful way that Deadpool is an xmen universe film even if no official xmen team never really appears in the 2016 film.

There is nothing tough to take in about characters in a world as large as Batman, Spiderman or X-Men getting spin off movies about events that went on at one point in their universe without other central characters like Batman, Magneto or Spiderman, just because MCU cannot make a film like the Joker does make it though to take in.

What in the last 70 years has actually helped X-Men, Spiderman or Batman to have great stand alone universes that never needed the larger Marvel and DC universe to be interesting. hence why the connected universe formula is getting tiring to many people, see this among lots of Spiderman fans that dislike MCU spiderman movies only because they cannot stand Iron Man's presence in it. That is all it takes to dislike a movie even if the movie has some good things in it.