Pros and Cons of Superman Not Being In A Shared Universe

[Agent Z]

I made a similar thread for the Wonder Woman forum, so I figured I'd make one for Superman too. Discuss the pros and cons of Superman and his cast being in a universe unconnected to superheroes outside of the Superman world.

[I'm a Fish]

Pro. Batman fand Superman wouldn't be pitted as enemies.

Con. Batman and Superman wouldn't be friends.

[Ra-El]

Pro - When Brainiac invaded Earth Superman wouldn't need to become a JL title.

Con - We would miss a lot of good character interactions.

[NaVi]

the good
1: superman would be a hero.
2: superman's enemies would be superman's enemies.
3: superman would be his own character, not a part of another.
4: superman would stop being a tool to make other heroes great.
5: the stories would have real consequences (you can't destroy the us without it being carved out in every dc comic.)

The bad.
1: nothing.

[Powerboy]

Positives.

Superman would be the most powerful hero.

The setting would be Supermancentric.

Superman would not be dumbed down or weakened so other characters could look better.

Negatives.

No interactions with other heroes.

[Ascended]

I came in here just to point to Invincible, but Ra-El beat me to it. If being self-contained gave us Superman comics that were of Invincible quality I'd take that in a heartbeat and not shed a single tear over losing the shared universe dynamics, because Invincible was the comic that every superhero comic wishes it could be.

But a lot of the "pro's" I'm seeing here seem to be taking "self contained" to mean "one creator calling the shots" rather than just "no other IP's exist." Those're two different things, and Clark being a self-contained IP doesn't automatically mean we'd get Invincible levels of quality. Invincible was great not because it was self contained (and technically it existed in the same world as Spawn and Savage Dragon) but because a single writer was calling the shots from the first to final issues.

However, a Superman who doesn't have to deal with Diana and Bruce and Barry and Zee.....that's a Superman who gets to be the #1 in his world, without all the bet hedging that tries to give everyone their due and ultimately devalues everyone. It means that the setting can be built around Clark entirely, without rules and details that don't serve his particular kind of narrative. You can decide how "magic" works in the setting (or if it even exists at all) without worrying about how that impacts Zee and Fate and the others, and only concern yourself with how it affects Clark.

Bottom line, a self-contained Superverse will give you a tighter, more focused setting and narrative where Clark's position as the #1 hero isn't called into question by other IP's. But that doesn't mean we'd get the kind of uber-tight, super-focused storytelling that we'd get from a single creator doing the entire publication.

As for con's.....honestly, I don't think there are too many. We'd obviously lose Clark's relationships to other heroes like Bruce, Diana, Dick, the League, etc. Those relationships could be replaced easily enough though, with heroes designed specifically for Clark's universe, just like how Invincible used proxy Leaguers, proxy Avengers, proxy X-Men, proxy Titans, etc., to fill out it's universe and give Mark other heroes to interact with. But you *do* lose a lot as far as the "rule of cool" goes; Superman hanging out with Batman or Wonder Woman is inherently cooler than Superman hanging out with "Ratman" or "Amazing Girl."

I don't feel like Clark has been so well served by the shared universe that it's something he needs, and I wouldn't argue with him being in his own universe, but that's not gonna solve the problems with the franchise either.

[SiegePerilous02]

Pro. Batman fand Superman wouldn't be pitted as enemies.

Con. Batman and Superman wouldn't be friends.

This would be the main one, not just for these two but for a lot of the superheroes in general. If we're not getting the World's Finest BFFs I'm not interested in them sharing space, but I would still feel like an important component was missing (Ditto Trinity friendship even if I could happily do without pairing Diana up with either).

Another benefit would be Superman actually being allowed to be the Man of Tomorrow and influence change in the world for the better. It wouldn't have to worry about the status quos of other heroes and IPs save the Legion, which was designed to work along with this set up

[Quinlan58]

Another benefit would be Superman actually being allowed to be the Man of Tomorrow and influence change in the world for the better. It wouldn't have to worry about the status quos of other heroes and IPs save the Legion, which was designed to work along with this set up

I don't think his lack of real impact is because he lives in a shared universe (even if that's also a factor). I think it's more because DC wants to keep the world more or less ecognizable as our own, and I don't think that'd change if he wasn't part of the shared universe.

Anyway:

Pros:

- He could be treated as a well rounded hero instead of just a powerful dude. Even if he isn't, then the ones benefitted by the specializations Superman wouldn't have would be members of the supporting cast rather than other superheroes.
- Less of a chance of him turning evil so other heroes can look better. Even if he is turned evil, then it would be in the benefit of the supporting cast.
- Speaking of the supporting cast, it would force the creative teams to develop them further.

Cons:

- Missing on a lot of character relationships. Superman and Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, Superman and Martian Manhunter, Kon El and Young Justice, Jon Kent and Damian Wayne, etc.
- Less developed cosmic and mystic settings for his adventures.
- No team appearences to hold you over if the solo titles are underwhelming at some point in time.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think his lack of real impact is because he lives in a shared universe (even if that's also a factor). I think it's more because DC wants to keep the world more or less ecognizable as our own, and I don't think that'd change if he wasn't part of the shared universe.

I don't think it would automatically change, but I think the odds of it would increase somewhat. A major reason "Status Quo is God" happens in the shared universe because it's difficult to coordinate across all the IPs, and some would either be impacted by what is happening to another or would have to ignore it and would effectively be out of main continuity anyway.

Like in New X-Men where it when mutant culture was changing and it was established that eventually everyone on Earth would be a mutant, but as soon as Morrison left Marvel moved heaven and Earth to prevent and undo that radical change. Which makes sense as it puts the rest of the MU on the spot to take it into account, but wasn't fair for the X-Men

[I'm a Fish]

I don't think his lack of real impact is because he lives in a shared universe (even if that's also a factor). I think it's more because DC wants to keep the world more or less ecognizable as our own, and I don't think that'd change if he wasn't part of the shared universe.

Anyway:

Pros:

- He could be treated as a well rounded hero instead of just a powerful dude. Even if he isn't, then the ones benefitted by the specializations Superman wouldn't have would be members of the supporting cast rather than other superheroes.
- Less of a chance of him turning evil so other heroes can look better. Even if he is turned evil, then it would be in the benefit of the supporting cast.
- Speaking of the supporting cast, it would force the creative teams to develop them further.

Cons:

- Missing on a lot of character relationships. Superman and Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, Superman and Martian Manhunter, Kon El and Young Justice, Jon Kent and Damian Wayne, etc.
- Less developed cosmic and mystic settings for his adventures.
- No team appearences to hold you over if the solo titles are underwhelming at some point in time.

Maybe Supergirl could finally grow up.

[NaVi]

if the superverse becomes a land of its own it has everything to gain and nothing to lose. Superman's relationship with the rest of the DC universe has not contributed anything for a long time, it only hurts the character. a proper superverse would give the opportunity for a real development. the trinity would be superman, supergirl and superboy, easily his relationship with the 2 could be the same as he has with ww (only friendship) and batman. EL's house would become the new league, one in which superman is not alone to magnify the rest of the JL. the rest of the heroes of metropolis would have their space. not forgetting the villains, lex is together with the joker the most important villain of dc, brainiac is the most important planetary villain of dc, darkseid (first appearance in superverse) is the cosmic villain of dc, not forgetting Mxyzptlk , a villain who allows all kinds of stories.

[JorgeJ77]

Maybe Supergirl could finally grow up.

How old is she now?

[manwhohaseverything]

If people want batman so badly for superman.Making it's own batman would be adequate.If superman needs "Rival" character.A vegeta,if you will.Making one for the ip would be better alternative.

[Vordan]

The “A-Listers” could be taken out of a shared universe and work perfectly fine. In DC’s case they were all created to exist independently on their own anyway. It’s the lesser known characters, your Blue Beetles, your Green Arrows, who benefit from being in the shared universe with Batman & Superman. Marvel would be hurt far more by it imo (aside form the mutants) since they were built as a shared universe pretty much right off the bat. That said:

Good
1. No more Supes getting beat up or turning evil to service other characters (looking at you Bats)
2. Forces writers to focus on Superman, Metropolis, the Superfamily, his Rogues, and his supporting cast because that’s all you get. No more bringing in Batman for technobabble, they’d have to use Steel or Kelex and I think that would be a good thing. More focus on what Metropolis is like, journalism investigations, etc
3. He could live up to the hype of being “the greatest” when he’s the only major hero (Kara, Kon, and others aside)
4. They could make use of his intelligence. A lot of writers usually make him dumb/naive because otherwise ethereal worries he’d overshadow characters who rely more on intellect such as Bats, Mr. Terrific, etc. If he’s the only one then that’s not a big concern

Bad
1. When done well his interactions with other heroes are fun to read, Batman, WW as friends and peers, the younger gens who look up to him, the older gens who respect or envy him
2. Being on the Justice League is a big deal, and Clark leaving permanently would hurt his status
3. Without the presence of other heroes in other niches there’s a worry his stories might become too homogenized. Would there still be a place for magic stuff if he didn’t live in a world with Diana, Zatanna, and others?

I still lean more towards him being on his own as a good thing, so many of his best stories take place outside the mainline, but I do admit he’d lose quite a few storytelling possibilities as well

[PCN24454]

The “A-Listers” could be taken out of a shared universe and work perfectly fine. In DC’s case they were all created to exist independently on their own anyway. It’s the lesser known characters, your Blue Beetles, your Green Arrows, who benefit from being in the shared universe with Batman & Superman. Marvel would be hurt far more by it imo (aside form the mutants) since they were built as a shared universe pretty much right off the bat. That said:

I would say that Arrow was best when he was just in his own universe.

All characters could benefit from being in their own universe since they'd be allowed to develop their own stories.