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  1. #16
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    The intention was no gods/Valar, but yes, Eärendil was included.
    Then the question(s) becomes 'do they get Eärendil circa War of Wrath, with Vingilotë, the Silmaril, the accompanying flights of Eagles? Huan and Melian, divine beings who were nonetheless part and parcel of the various messes that happened in the actual First Age?'

    If so, then it basically boils down to 'can Thanos with one or two Gems beat this group?' because he's it. Even with the size difference, Huan would probably beat up MCU Fenris (by 'probably beat up', I mean 'probably kick his ass', not 'probably win', he's gonna win), which puts him somewhere above pretty much everyone on Thanos' team outside of Thanos, himself. Lúthien puts people like Morgoth to sleep, Galadrial personally blows up Sauron's summer home, Melian enshrouds entire countries with a mist that leaves her enemies completely lost and confused while people FROM that country are just fine, Eärendil and Manwë's Eagles kill all crap out of a horde of Dragons led by Ancalagon (hey, look, it's Thanos' big immobile ship, which is nonetheless really no worse than a dragon who wrecks three mountains in his death throes)…

    …I'm taking a wild stab in the dark that, outside of Eärendil and the Eagles (mentioned) we're not getting any of the Host of Eldar that the Valar sent to fight in the War of Wrath? Because even without the Maiar, that's thousands of Valinor Noldorin Eldar on top of all of the legions who already exist in Beleriand through the First Age (the Leaguer, the forces of Gondolin and Menegroth, the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod, the Sindarin warriors of Doriath, the many Houses of the Edain, etc etc). Plus the Vanyar Eldar, who by all accounts make the Noldor nervous when it comes to beating stuff up. Probably best to leave them out, but it doesn't make THAT much of a difference.

    Basically, even without the Eldar hosts from Valinor, there is one crapton of armed and armored superwarriors ready to fight Thanos' armies. Layer on top of that some extremely powerful individuals AND some weapons of mass destruction (Huan, Lúthian potentially, Eärendil/Vingilotë/the Eagles), and Thanos' ground-based forces that we see in Endgame are pretty outnumbered and screwed.

    It's coming down to 'Can Thanos pull a moon down on them or something?' At which point, we're getting into 'war of powers' so it's kind of odd to allow Thanos to keep that kind of stuff while the Valar are disallowed. ^_^ But stuff like Thanos's moon feat is a tad beyond anyone except, I don't know, Morgoth at his height or the like, so if he gets the ability to basically carpet-bomb his enemies with impunity he unsurprisingly wins.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 04-16-2021 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Spelling. :)
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  2. #17
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Wait so Huan is around Hulk's Huan class?
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arxiros "Arx" Inosaan | Inanna

  3. #18
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Wait so Huan is around Hulk's Huan class?
    So, Huan is a being that beats all crap out of Shapeshifting Sauron in physical combat. Given we don't have a whole lot on Sauron in terms of his physical ability, beyond him incinerating kitted out Eldar, this isn't going to help us. Other than 'at the time he was a full-powered Maia, considered one of the more powerful of them, and the mightiest of Morgoth's servants'.

    However, Huan is also a being who...okay, stage setting. Huan fights Carcharoth, Morgoth's monster of a werewolf, when Carcharoth has a Silmaril in his gut that is simultaneously driving him into an agonized berserk fury and jacking him up him to the point where the wolf basically powers right through the Girdle of Melian, a potent Maia's barrier that things like Balrogs, dragons, and such hadn't been able to get through until that point.

    Huan fights this demon-beast, and just the outcry/bellowing/baying from their clash together is noted as literally tearing cliff walls asunder/shattering stone. Huan also pretty much ties him, killing him but dying afterward, which means ~ 51% of that is coming from him.

    I'm pretty comfortable with that putting Huan in an area where Fenris is going to have serious trouble with him, and where he'll literally ragdoll Thanos's flunkies like a terrier on a rat. But mileage may vary.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 04-13-2021 at 11:34 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  4. #19
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    So, Huan is a being that beats all crap out of Shapeshifting Sauron in physical combat. Given we don't have a whole lot on Sauron in terms of his physical ability, beyond him incinerating kitted out Eldar, this isn't going to help us.

    However, Huan is also a being who...okay, stage setting. Huan fights Carcharoth, Morgoth's monster of a werewolf, when Carcharoth has a Silmaril in his gut that is simultaneously driving him into an agonized berserk fury and jacking him up him to the point where the wolf basically powers right through the Girdle of Melian, a powerful Maia's barrier that things like Balrogs, dragons, and such hadn't been able to get through until that point.

    Huan fights this demon-beast, and just the outcry/bellowing/baying from their clash together is noted as literally tearing cliff walls asunder/shattering stone.

    I'm pretty comfortable with that putting Huan in an area where Fenris is going to have serious trouble with him, and where he'll literally ragdoll Thanos's flunkies like a terrier on a rat. But mileage may vary.
    Oh I don't disagree that Fenris is going to have a hell of a time, I just didn't remember Huan being that beefy.

    Should be noted though that Hulk, for all his strength, only really survived against Fenris because Fenris fell off of Asgard. So there was a disparity between the two of them, however slight.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arxiros "Arx" Inosaan | Inanna

  5. #20
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Oh I don't disagree that Fenris is going to have a hell of a time, I just didn't remember Huan being that beefy.

    Should be noted though that Hulk, for all his strength, only really survived against Fenris because Fenris fell off of Asgard. So there was a disparity between the two of them, however slight.
    We're definitely into an area where there's a lot of inference that needs to be made (Tolkien and Rumbles...). For me, I'm rather with the idea that something strong enough to take on a being that wanders through a mighty Maia's power, that beats all crap out of someone capable of defying the lightning of the Valar (Sauron) at a time when said lighting is doing stuff like 'blowing up important buildings made by the people who made Orthanc', whose bellowing and baying during combat is literally tearing cliffs apart (and one must remember, these rock-splitting cries aren't anything to THEM, it's just 'sounds we're making whilst fighting'), that thing is pretty tough enough to take on what we saw from Fenris in the movie.

    I mean, part of what made Fenris capable of fighting the Hulk was that he was putting teeth in him and slamming around the much smaller Hulk like a rat. It didn't look like Fenris was as physically STRONG as the Hulk (the much smaller Hulk lands a punch, Fenris whipsaws around like he's been hit by a giant); he just got his teeth in Hulk and started ripping him up...and wolves have a looooot of biting power. Natural weaponry trumps fists. :)

    And here, I'm not necessarily saying that Huan is physically as strong as the Hulk, either (ie, lifting). But he sure can fight something while tossing out sound that's ripping stone apart around them, and his enemy is doing the same, and really that's no big deal for either of them, it's just the SOUND they're making. If we talk about 'how strong is something?' by comparing the collateral that happens when they fight, that's a pretty big point. I'm pretty cool with him getting in Fenris's face and doing some damage.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 04-13-2021 at 11:49 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  6. #21
    Incredible Member Harbinger19's Avatar
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    I would chime in to agree with Sharp that Huan is gonna put the hurt on Fenris due to strength alone and would add that he’s likely got a speed edge too given his “jump and catch arrow fired by Noldor” feat against Curufin.

    I broke out my copy of the Silmarillion and it’s noted that the battle of Huan and Caracharoth split so many rocks and cliffs that the falls of Esgalduin were plugged.

    Now Esgalduin is basically the main River that forms one of the borders of Doriath and it’s noted earlier in ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’ that Thingol’s people built a bridge over it connecting to Menegroth which was the ONLY way to cross in that region.

    So, this is a whole river, and NOT a small river at that, having a torrential waterfall of its main flow plugged up a landslide caused by Huan and Caracharoth’s baying and howling.
    "What I sought, I could not obtain."

    "This is a meaningless battle. We are two madmen engaging in senseless folley."

    "I will kill, I will let live..."

    --Genuine Fake Priest Kotomine Kirei

  7. #22
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harbinger19 View Post
    I would chime in to agree with Sharp that Huan is gonna put the hurt on Fenris due to strength alone and would add that he’s likely got a speed edge too given his “jump and catch arrow fired by Noldor” feat against Curufin.
    Good catch (haha). I remembered that one a day after I posted.

    Huan is an absolute monster when one looks at the feats in detail.

    I broke out my copy of the Silmarillion and it’s noted that the battle of Huan and Caracharoth split so many rocks and cliffs that the falls of Esgalduin were plugged.

    Now Esgalduin is basically the main River that forms one of the borders of Doriath and it’s noted earlier in ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’ that Thingol’s people built a bridge over it connecting to Menegroth which was the ONLY way to cross in that region.

    So, this is a whole river, and NOT a small river at that, having a torrential waterfall of its main flow plugged up a landslide caused by Huan and Caracharoth’s baying and howling.
    Yeah, I wasn't exaggerating when I noted it was tearing cliff walls apart. ^_^
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

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