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  1. #16
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I've watched those. IMO the monsters never actually did a lot with each other. In one of them, Dracula never even meets the other two.
    To be fair, there's not a lot you could have expected them to do to interact with each other beyond just fighting. Dracula is evil, the Wolf Man is cursed, and Frankenstein has his own social issues, so it's not like they'd spend time with each other much willingly. I mean, a great writer could pull it off, but as characters their personalities don't mesh. However them not meshing as individuals is not the same as their worlds and films not meshing well with each other. Just that monsters don't socialize.

    And even then, Frankenstein and the Wolf Man had the two interact a great deal on relatively good terms for the most part. Least as long as Talbot wasn't under a full moon.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, there's not a lot you could have expected them to do to interact with each other beyond just fighting. Dracula is evil, the Wolf Man is cursed, and Frankenstein has his own social issues, so it's not like they'd spend time with each other much willingly. I mean, a great writer could pull it off, but as characters their personalities don't mesh. However them not meshing as individuals is not the same as their worlds and films not meshing well with each other. Just that monsters don't socialize.

    And even then, Frankenstein and the Wolf Man had the two interact a great deal on relatively good terms for the most part. Least as long as Talbot wasn't under a full moon.
    Ok. I guess I thought it didn't work without them really interacting

  3. #18
    StRaNgE Member! Eskana's Avatar
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    I like it, but as a "special" more than an everyday thing when it's a main, solo hero (i.e., Batman and Superman, as opposed to lower-level superheroes, or ones who are almost always shown as a team like the X-men or JLI, that's really just part of the story.)
    But at the same time, it also raises questions (like "Why doesn't the Flash just catch all the Gotham villains" or "Shouldn't Superman be able to hear such-and-such happening and come help") which everyone just tries really hard to ignore.

    ... not really an answer, but like some people are saying, if it works, great, but at the same time it shouldn't be the whole goal. Marvel started as solo movies, and were able to build into the shared universe. DC was trying to do it backward, fell apart, then had several good solo movies (Aquaman, WW, Shazam) which are only tangentially related. I kind of wish they would just keep going with that, and just let everyone do their own thing.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskana View Post
    I like it, but as a "special" more than an everyday thing when it's a main, solo hero (i.e., Batman and Superman, as opposed to lower-level superheroes, or ones who are almost always shown as a team like the X-men or JLI, that's really just part of the story.)
    But at the same time, it also raises questions (like "Why doesn't the Flash just catch all the Gotham villains" or "Shouldn't Superman be able to hear such-and-such happening and come help") which everyone just tries really hard to ignore.

    ... not really an answer, but like some people are saying, if it works, great, but at the same time it shouldn't be the whole goal. Marvel started as solo movies, and were able to build into the shared universe. DC was trying to do it backward, fell apart, then had several good solo movies (Aquaman, WW, Shazam) which are only tangentially related. I kind of wish they would just keep going with that, and just let everyone do their own thing.
    Idk. That's like wondering why the army doesn't defeat the mob IMO. For me the bigger problem is the lack of permanent change

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by LastSonOfShaolin View Post
    In comics, in tv, in movies, in everything. Why is everyone so obsessed with everything having to connect to everything else?

    DC could have had so many movies out by now for all their main characters in their own universe. But no we have to wait so long cause we have to keep starting over and build a foundation first and then have everything slowly sprawl from that. Cavill should be on his 4th Superman solo movie by now. Aquaman trilogy should also be in the books by now.

    I cant just sit down and read an entire Supergirl series from any era cause its injected with so much bull shit from "events" that I have to put the comic down and pick up my phone to access Wikimedia to find out what's going on every other issue. Wait what??? Why is Supergirl and Powergirl stuck on Candor all of a sudden? What does this have to do with anything??????

    Ok I'm calm now. I'm surprised Rambo Terminator and Die Hard hasn't been retconned to exist in same universe.
    People like the idea of a story that connects with another story. It allows the world to feel bigger than it is.

    If you don't like it, that's fine. Just maybe DC and Marvel aren't for you anymore. I agree with Sigfighter, you should go read some indies.

  6. #21
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Ok. I guess I thought it didn't work without them really interacting
    I mean, a monster universe works differently than one for heroes. They don't team up for the greater good, they menace the human characters and butt heads with one another because they're goals and personalities are in conflict. Dracula is a blood sucking remorseless demon, Frankenstein is a confused, angry, misunderstood zombie man, and the Wolf Man is a cursed man looking for a means of dying permanently so he doesn't come back as a bloodthirsty werewolf who happens to be a territorial beast who attacks the other monsters as a threat. Their interactions are therefore limited and largely reduced to fighting - but it's memorable. More important than how they interact with each other, is the influence they have on the human characters and the plot in general. If you focus on pulling off those factors, then they work in a shared setting perfectly well. This is something that Universal understood more back then, but can't quite seem to grasp now. They can't even make a villainous Dracula or a Mummy movie that cares to focus on being a Mummy movie now...

  7. #22
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastSonOfShaolin View Post
    I'm surprised Rambo Terminator and Die Hard hasn't been retconned to exist in same universe.
    Heh.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn4xYUudWYg
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  8. #23
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    I mean, weird hill to die on considering that's been the conceit of DC and Marvel since just about all of us have been alive; definitely been the case longer than it hasn't in the history of these companies. it's like when people try to lampshade superhero costumes and superpowers, it doesn't make much sense to invest in this particular niche if you don't buy into it's tropes and conventions. like Sigfighter pointed out there are other publishers that aren't centered around the shared universe concept; hell, there's also Webtoons (where you can support starving artists) and Manga (which is as popular as ever), and those are both typically standalone and super accessible. DC comics isn't the end all be all in graphic storytelling media, it's ok to just cherry pick and move on to other content.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 04-11-2021 at 10:49 PM.
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  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Ok. I guess I thought it didn't work without them really interacting
    You might like Penny Dreadful. That's basically Universal's Dark Universe done right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk. That's like wondering why the army doesn't defeat the mob IMO. For me the bigger problem is the lack of permanent change
    That's less a shared universe problem and more a storytelling problem. Most ongoing stories don't really change until the end. This is easier to spot in tv shows and such because closer to the end, they start wrapping things up.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    You might like Penny Dreadful. That's basically Universal's Dark Universe done right.

    That's less a shared universe problem and more a storytelling problem. Most ongoing stories don't really change until the end. This is easier to spot in tv shows and such because closer to the end, they start wrapping things up.
    I see. I personally don't think it's unreasonable for different heroes to not engage with each other all the time. Different situations may call for different power levels and so forth. If villains actually remained locked up, it wouldn't be a problem. But I think comics could do better by allowing the characters to age and evolve

  11. #26
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I see. I personally don't think it's unreasonable for different heroes to not engage with each other all the time. Different situations may call for different power levels and so forth. If villains actually remained locked up, it wouldn't be a problem. But I think comics could do better by allowing the characters to age and evolve
    If they did, we wouldn't have the characters we know and love today. With age and evolution comes death and new characters taking over. And I'm just not interested in some new Batman who isn't Bruce or a Superman who isn't Clark. A lot of people don't want these characters to change out.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    If they did, we wouldn't have the characters we know and love today. With age and evolution comes death and new characters taking over. And I'm just not interested in some new Batman who isn't Bruce or a Superman who isn't Clark. A lot of people don't want these characters to change out.
    I get that, but I don't think they can stay around forever. At some point we need to make room for modern characters to take the forefront. I still like the old guys, but I'm trying to think outside just what I like and see the bigger picture.

  13. #28
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I get that, but I don't think they can stay around forever. At some point we need to make room for modern characters to take the forefront. I still like the old guys, but I'm trying to think outside just what I like and see the bigger picture.
    I disagree - Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman may be 80 years old, but they're very modern. We reboot them, we reimagine them, we rework the costumes, add new villains and supporting casts for them, and just modernize them all the time. They're not out of touch with the times, and when they are it's not long before they find a way to course correct and work again. The bigger picture shows that they very well can stay around forever. Hell, we even have modern versions of Sherlock Holmes and Frankenstein and Dracula. They remade the Invisible Man last year. So, why can't they last forever? The only limits to their future is our imagination to tell new stories with them, and I'm not gonna bet against human imagination.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I disagree - Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman may be 80 years old, but they're very modern. We reboot them, we reimagine them, we rework the costumes, add new villains and supporting casts for them, and just modernize them all the time. They're not out of touch with the times, and when they are it's not long before they find a way to course correct and work again. The bigger picture shows that they very well can stay around forever. Hell, we even have modern versions of Sherlock Holmes and Frankenstein and Dracula. They remade the Invisible Man last year. So, why can't they last forever? The only limits to their future is our imagination to tell new stories with them, and I'm not gonna bet against human imagination.
    Maybe they can create a separate line of comics where the characters do age, to some extent, and see id readers like that (assuming they haven't already)

  15. #30
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Maybe they can create a separate line of comics where the characters do age, to some extent, and see id readers like that (assuming they haven't already)
    Kind of hard to argue that to DC when most of their non-Bat characters can't hold more than one or two comics. It's more the sort of thing to be explored in miniseries and OGNs than a line.

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