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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I kind of like the idea. It recognizes the New Gods as something transcendental. Kind of like a horizontal version of Dr. Manhattan's relationship with time.

    But I don't see it having many practical implications either way. Darkseid or his avatars will still act as differently as they need to - unless a writer decides to have Darkseid explicitly remember everything that ever happened to him and DC's heroes. I haven't encountered this concept in a story so I may not be the best judge but that's my instinct.

  2. #17
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    I thought the new god's only truly existed on the fourth world, and anywhere else was them as avatars

    I was sort of thinking any alternative versions of fourth world were just avatars of itself really

    At least that's how it makes sense to me from what I've read

  3. #18
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Darkseid has an avatar in each universe, and Final Crisis confirmed that there was in fact a "true Darkseid" at the head of it all. This is also true of all of the New Gods, including New Genesis and Apokolips themselves.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Seeing as Darkseid was in the old DCEU cartoons, the New 52-inspired animated movie series, the Snyderverse movies, and hinted to exist in the DCEU film series, he does have alternate counterparts by default.
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  5. #20
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That...just feels like a copout.
    It sure does.

    I call nonsensical BS.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    All these responses just re-iterating the very concept itself, as if it's undeniable fact which has always been true about New Gods, or other gods, are honestly just kind of irritating?...

    Again, I really don't want to give the impression that I think anyone specifically is dumb just for liking this idea. I don't even necessarily think the "one Darkseid / other individual New Gods for multiple worlds" idea has literally no use. I mean it worked okay during the early New 52. But it can only be limited use. You can't pretend that there's some actual way in which Kirby's Darkseid is the same character as Morrison's, no matter how much you abstract it with "idealist refraction" or whatever it's called.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That...just feels like a copout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    It sure does.

    I call nonsensical BS.
    Pretty much what Mightnight_v said. But, I'd like to push back on what you said about Morrison's Darkseid being not what Kirby intended or that Kirby's Darkseid is just a "cartoon character designed to be fascist." Kirby was actually deeper than what you give him credit for. Kirby literally designed these characters to be gods. That wasn't just a neat name. It was actually what he meant to portray them as.

    He intended them to be like the gods of ancient myth, i.e. manifestations of larger, more obtuse concepts. Just like how Ares was the god of war and drew his power from conflict, Darkseid was intended to be the god of evil and drew his power from the darkness inherent in peoples' souls. And when you look at actual myths, avatars of a larger, more obtuse diety is something that pops up a LOT. Think of Vishnu in Hinduism or Horus and Osiris in Egyptian mythology. Even the Holy Trinity in Christianity is an example of one diety that is also three cosubstantial persons.

    So...one diety having multiple iterations/avatars while the True Darkseid is an intangible being residing in another plane is not something that Morrison just pulled out of thin air and is a logical extension of what Kirby originally intended.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 04-12-2021 at 03:52 PM.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    I thought the new god's only truly existed on the fourth world, and anywhere else was them as avatars

    I was sort of thinking any alternative versions of fourth world were just avatars of itself really

    At least that's how it makes sense to me from what I've read
    which new gods have avatars?
    Imo it should only be highfather and darkseid
    everyone else are just denizens of the 4th world they are not aspects like darkseid or highfather
    maybe orion too but that's complicated

  8. #23
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    So Highfather is not around anymore?
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  9. #24
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    So Highfather is not around anymore?
    A good question. I'm not sure.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    A good question. I'm not sure.
    Darkseid just killed Highfather along with the Quintessence in "Infinite Frontier." I'm sure he'll be back though.

    As to the topic of this thread, I think it's a fine idea that there's only one version of Darkseid or the other New Gods or whatever - they're supposed to be "Gods" so this provides an aspect to their "godliness", otherwise they're just a bunch of aliens. If someone doesn't like the idea, that's fine, but I don't see why it would be a stupid or bad idea. Maybe it doesn't hold up continuity-wise, but nothing in DC has airtight continuity I'm fine with sticking with the idea moving forward.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Darkseid just killed Highfather along with the Quintessence in "Infinite Frontier." I'm sure he'll be back though.

    As to the topic of this thread, I think it's a fine idea that there's only one version of Darkseid or the other New Gods or whatever - they're supposed to be "Gods" so this provides an aspect to their "godliness", otherwise they're just a bunch of aliens. If someone doesn't like the idea, that's fine, but I don't see why it would be a stupid or bad idea. Maybe it doesn't hold up continuity-wise, but nothing in DC has airtight continuity I'm fine with sticking with the idea moving forward.
    I think the objection is more that it’s a meaningless premise that DC doesn’t seem to want to back-up in a practical sense, so the pretense that it matters is annoying.

    It’s basically a theoretical route to take that no one’s actually gone down in a way that matters (save Morrison), and thus feels pointless.

    I would t offer it as a trivia fact about the character unless they actually had the cajones to at least show a handful of cross-media/continuity appearances of Darkseid showcase the actual meta-textual terror of the idea.
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  12. #27
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    which new gods have avatars?
    Imo it should only be highfather and darkseid
    everyone else are just denizens of the 4th world they are not aspects like darkseid or highfather
    maybe orion too but that's complicated
    That sort of defeats the point of them being gods, though. They aren't intended to just be super powerful aliens, but literal embodiments of ideas. While Highfather and Darkseid are the leaders of their respective planets, the rest of the New Gods run along the same lines. Lightray and Desaad and the rest of them embody concepts just as plainly as their leaders

    The whole idea was to make them distinct from DC's many other alien races and give them a proper Sci-Fi Vertigo feel they should have gotten ages ago. The Platonic Ideal aspect is a good way of making them feel suitably mythic and beyond.

  13. #28
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jody Garland View Post
    That sort of defeats the point of them being gods, though. They aren't intended to just be super powerful aliens, but literal embodiments of ideas. While Highfather and Darkseid are the leaders of their respective planets, the rest of the New Gods run along the same lines. Lightray and Desaad and the rest of them embody concepts just as plainly as their leaders

    The whole idea was to make them distinct from DC's many other alien races and give them a proper Sci-Fi Vertigo feel they should have gotten ages ago. The Platonic Ideal aspect is a good way of making them feel suitably mythic and beyond.
    I think Kirby already attained that with them without this weird cop out though.

  14. #29
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    So how does multiversial constant Darkseid feel about all those times he was defeated by the Superfriends?

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Darkseid becoming a metaphysical super entity serves one real purpose that DC wants to hang its hat on: it gives them an end boss. He's the event horizon. He's the final boss. The raid boss. He drops the sickest loot when vanquished.

    Marvel has a few contenders (your Thanos or Dr. Dooms) and DC gets by with Darkseid. Even the Anti-Monitor has had diminishing returns, but Darkseid seemingly keeps creeping back up and remaining a threat despite getting punked pretty often (usually by someone who wants to boost the flying brick flavor of the month without doing any real effort).

    If DC stopped letting Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, etc. beat Darkseid full-stop, then eventually that threat would feel earned. Instead he shows up, the Quintessence job to him, we'll do a little retread of Final Crisis and in five years Bruce is manhandling him with the Hellbat Armor in Apokolips like a bad game of Clue. I've been on this ride before, so I'm jaded, but unless they can create a big bad that actually is compelling (so not The Batman Who Laughs or Perpetua), or build up someone else, Darkseid being that entity that exists outside the bounds of the general rules of engagement is kind of necessary. You need a villain who makes all the heroes sweat and it's best when it's not just the arch enemy of one of your basic heroes (No Lex or Jokers) or Our Most Popular Hero/Villain but EXTRA EEEEEEVIL which just comes across as creatively bankrupt.

    Darkseid also works on that last point because he doesn't belong to any one hero. He's got some tangential relationship to Superman, but at most the franchises are distant cousins who butt heads now and then, and it's mostly because the DCAU crew were big Kirby geeks and took the existing connections and made a season out of it, thus inspiring a new generation to see Darkseid as a Superman villain. But he isn't. Not really.
    Last edited by Robanker; 04-13-2021 at 12:44 AM.

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