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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Default Darkseid not having alternate counter parts is dumb

    So there is supposedly only one Darkseid but that is dumb when you think about it. For example Darkfather from the Dark Multiverse proves this to be false. Darkfather is a Batman who defeated his Darkseid and took his power. This alone proves other Darkseids can exist. As another Darkseid had to exist and Batman taking his power became another Darkseid. I just don't get the absurd need to say there is one when there are clearly more only thing I can figure is the alternates are unaware of each other's existence. There was even a Darkseid Superman(he had no lines) who fought in Barbatos's army
    Last edited by Castiel; 04-11-2021 at 07:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    there is only one darkseid
    darkseid has aspects throughout the multiverse which lead to things like darkfather but they are far from the sum of the true darkseid

  3. #3
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    there is only one darkseid
    darkseid has aspects throughout the multiverse which lead to things like darkfather but they are far from the sum of the true darkseid
    That...just feels like a copout.

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That...just feels like a copout.
    Plus it makes no sense.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I completely agree.

    It's not just dumb, it's deliberately ignorant of that fact that Darkseid already has alternate versions.

    There is no way to argue that Kirby's Darkseid from 1971 is the same person as Morrison's Darkseid from 2008. And that goes for most versions of Darkseid, to be honest.

    To say that all Darkseid iterations across all media merely "reflect" some "real" Darkseid is only to say that there is, in fact, no Darkseid at all, because he has never been put to page, and furthermore, never can be.

    And let's be completely f*cking real here, let's drop the in-universe pretensions: this idea for the New Gods is a retcon that was made up around what, like 2006? Jack Kirby and John Byrne and Walt Simonson are fairlydefinitive New Gods writers and none of them ever wrote with this idea in mind. And certainly Kirby ought to take some pretty huge precedence over everyone else here!

    If the idea at least kind of worked for most stories, that might be one thing. Jerry Siegel didn't initially think Superman got power from the sun, but that concept is fairly unobtrusive and it doesn't seem to contradict stories before that idea was introduced! By contrast, the "Every New God Is the Same Across All Media" concept is such a bizarre, meta conceit, that it obviously and clearly only works (on the shakiest ground mind you) for stories that are already written with this idea in mind. Is the New 52 Darkseid who laid waste to Robinson's Earth 2 the same one who the League fought on Earth 0? Sure, close enough. But is the Kalibak one from Justice League Unlimited the same one as in The Super-Powers Team: Galactic Guardians? Only in the same way that their Batmen are both the same character! But there are clear and obvious variations on a creative level. No level of "reflecting" an imaginary, ineffable, impossibly inconceivable "true" version of a New God, can ultimately cover up the fact that the level of variation we see for different versions of these characters, is the same kind of variation you see for every single other DC character.

    It's idiotic.

    I mean I'm not saying everyone who likes the idea is personally dumb, but the idea is a bad one, and we should recognize its obvious limitations, I say!
    Last edited by Adekis; 04-11-2021 at 11:24 PM.
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  6. #6
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Aren't all the New Gods, Greek Gods, and Guardians supposed to have only one true self? Their worlds were officially confirmed to exist outside the multiverse. I don't know how this works but DC was adamant in not making them exist within multiple Earths.

  7. #7
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    Darkseid is a multiversal being, sort of like an amorphous concept that lives on a higher plane of existence. And every avatar of Darkseid is kind of just like a slice of his consciousness, all of which have their own agency, but it's only part of the True Darkseid that resides on the plane of Fourth World.

  8. #8
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    Darkseid having multiple aspects of himself have been addressed many times in the past. Simonson's run, Morrison has addressed this in Multiversity, and recently in Orlando's run on Wonder Woman.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    All these responses just re-iterating the very concept itself, as if it's undeniable fact which has always been true about New Gods, or other gods, are honestly just kind of irritating?

    "The idea that Darkseid, or other New Gods, are simply reflections of a greater multiversal constant, is largely a dumb, bad idea."

    "No see, you don't understand. Darkseid and other New Gods are simply reflections of a greater multiversal constant."

    "I just said that that's a bad idea."

    "Maybe if I say it again, you'll understand. It's in comics, you see."

    "As a concept, it can only be executed well in certain comics that start with that idea in mind. It does not apply across the board. This idea wasn't part of the New Gods mythos for a good thirty-five or so years, the vast majority of the New Gods' real publication history."

    "But you see... Darkseid is. We can only ever see a reflection of his true infinite menace."

    "Darkseid is literally a cartoon character made to be a space fascist. He has as much truth as Darth Vader."

    Again, I really don't want to give the impression that I think anyone specifically is dumb just for liking this idea. I don't even necessarily think the "one Darkseid / other individual New Gods for multiple worlds" idea has literally no use. I mean it worked okay during the early New 52. But it can only be limited use. You can't pretend that there's some actual way in which Kirby's Darkseid is the same character as Morrison's, no matter how much you abstract it with "idealist refraction" or whatever it's called.
    Last edited by Adekis; 04-12-2021 at 12:47 AM.
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  10. #10
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    It's a neat concept, but far too late for it to be shoehorned onto Darkseid, who already has different versions. Save it for some other uber-baddy.

    My pet fanon back in the day was that the words of Apokalips and New Genesis were the exact same planet, at two different stages of development / competing paradigms. An ideal world, a template for what all worlds can be, or become, pristine and full of life or battered and broken. One the alpha, one the omega, and Darkseid wants to hasten the day that alpha crosses the rubicon and becomes omega...

  11. #11
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    It's a neat concept, but far too late for it to be shoehorned onto Darkseid, who already has different versions. Save it for some other uber-baddy.
    I agree in my opinion the multiversal concept should only apply to the Presence, Perpetua, her "children" and maybe Barbatos. Since they all play a role in the creation and destruction of the multiverse/omniverse or whatever.
    Last edited by Castiel; 04-12-2021 at 05:25 AM.

  12. #12
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    All these responses just re-iterating the very concept itself, as if it's undeniable fact which has always been true about New Gods, or other gods, are honestly just kind of irritating?

    Again, I really don't want to give the impression that I think anyone specifically is dumb just for liking this idea. I don't even necessarily think the "one Darkseid / other individual New Gods for multiple worlds" idea has literally no use. I mean it worked okay during the early New 52. But it can only be limited use. You can't pretend that there's some actual way in which Kirby's Darkseid is the same character as Morrison's, no matter how much you abstract it with "idealist refraction" or whatever it's called.
    Why do you think its a "Bad Idea" then. I mean its pretty obvious a lot of people disagree with you so I'd like to think you'll be able to elaborate a bit more than
    "I think its a stupid idea"

    Its actually a pretty damn good idea in a lot of ways. . . "If"

    If you want to have a -Big Bad- that no amount of punching is going to truly solve. Its a lovecraftian solution and in a way its similar to all those dieties in dungeons and dragons.
    The idea of "THE AVATAR" shouldn't be so foreign to people in this era.
    but.

    And let's be completely f*cking real here
    as you say...

    John Byrne and Walt Simonson are fairly definitive New Gods writers and none of them ever wrote with this idea in mind. And certainly Kirby ought to take some pretty huge precedence over everyone else here!
    But they aren't around writing for dc and its those guys jobs to make decisions none of us like. it is what it is.


    I mean I get it you don't like the "un-punchability" of having some nebulous Lovecraftian "True Darkseid" out there and all the ones we see are merely reflections or echoes or flippin tendrils of the real deal.

    Further to be fair you can like what you like obviously, but not liking something doesn't make it bad.
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  13. #13
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    While I understand people who want multiple Darkseids, I don't understand why it's dumb not to have them. Seems pretty logical to only have one in this context.
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  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    All these responses just re-iterating the very concept itself, as if it's undeniable fact which has always been true about New Gods, or other gods, are honestly just kind of irritating?
    No, the complaint was it was dumb because of something the OP either did not understand or just omitted knowing about or taking into account when making a claim. Pointing that out is fine.

  15. #15
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    The issue with a “multi-verse singularity” idea is the same for Darkseid as it was for the 13 Primes in Transformers; it’s largely a fun conceptual idea that sees little practical application because of the conceits of the premise allowing it to be so flexible, and *does* include the baggage one might have for being told that the most gnarly, intimidating, and cool version of an idea must be considered one and the same with the most glib or unpopular version of the idea.

    I don’t mind it, but I don’t see it as some cool thing either. It’s a conceptual detail that rarely has any real impact different from versions of other characters that appear in other media and continuities.

    Like, if we started seeing a concerted effort at making sure that, say, if Darkseid gets a scar across his eye like in the possible future from Morrison’s JLA run, and it popped up in all cartoons afterwards, or Darkseid started comparing distinctly different versions of his opponent to each other in commentary, I think it would have real impact. But we haven’t seen anything like that.
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