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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Well, beings like the Spectre exists so probably not.

    Though I guess it depends if you consider him a hero.
    Yeah once you get cosmic with someone like that, it's a different ball-game.

  2. #17
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    I would think if Superman was free to be Superman, then he would be more powerful. Because of other super-heroes needing to be powerful, too, and because of plot, Superman is being weakened all the time. Granted he wasn't as powerful when he was created. But he was the only one. And there were no weaknesses fabricated like Kryptonite ten years later or Red Sun more than twenty years later.

    The explanation--gravity--never really made a whole lot of sense. They just wanted a character that was a Superman and they weren't too concerned about the science. Later writers have struggled to make up rules for how the powers work, but Superman is just Super.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I can only say I think he should be the most powerful in the powers he has. That may seem obvious. But he has super strength, super durability, super speed, flight, heat vision, etc. He should be the most powerful in those.

    That doesn't mean that Firestorm or a Green Lantern couldn't whammy him by making kryptonite or that Zatanna couldn't stop him with magic. Wonder Woman has her lasso which is magic and a number of devices that are magic. He can't read minds or turn non-corporeal like the Martian Manhunter.
    That would be just terrible and makes no sense, if Superman is the fastest and strongest to a notable degree are no objects from Firestorm or Green Lantern, no magic of Zatanna, no lasso of Wonder Woman, and no ability of Martian Manhunter going to stop him, we saw something that silly in the DCEU already. And he would completely screw over Flash, and to a lesser degree other characters, Almighty Superman don't works in a shared verse.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    That would be just terrible and makes no sense, if Superman is the fastest and strongest to a notable degree are no objects from Firestorm or Green Lantern, no magic of Zatanna, no lasso of Wonder Woman, and no ability of Martian Manhunter going to stop him, we saw something that silly in the DCEU already. And he would completely screw over Flash, and to a lesser degree other characters, Almighty Superman don't works in a shared verse.
    Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think he's saying he can be the most powerful while still being affected by those other devices/abilities.

  5. #20
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    if we talk about famous heroes, that even people outside the comics know, then it is YES.
    1: with the little energy that reaches the earth it is level ww or green lantern, if it bathed in the core of the sun or absorbed cosmic energy (new 52, ​​the story has been erased but it is still the same superman) not only would it be a lot stronger, it would also have more powers (telepathy, teleportation, control over energy / matter, telikinesis, and others)
    2: his weaknesses in some cases have disappeared when his strength increased, but for that he also has Torquasm-Vo (it is supposed to increase his resistance including his weaknesses).
    3: although few of his feats of intelligence (modifying the miracle machine) prove that he is one of the most intelligent men in the universe.
    4: the fortress has the most advanced technology in the universe.
    5: one of his extra powers (cosmic energy) allowed him to give powers to another, thanks to H'El it is known that a simple Kryptonian cell exposed to the correct energy can create a Kryptonian, it can create its own pantheon.
    6: but his greatest power is that he is SUPERMAN, many of the most powerful beings in the universe respect and trust him, but the most important thing they see him as a good boy, it would be very easy to manipulate and use them to his advantage.

  6. #21
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Does this apply to every hero or just Superman in this context?
    It should apply to everyone or no one, IMO.
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  7. #22
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    In terms of living corporeal mortal (ish) beings

    He's right where the top of the mountain is

    Sure some other characters can hit his vulnerability, but by and large they get the chance to do so because he's mostly in third gear

    Can some emulate kryptonite radiation, yes, but I've always felt it wasn't as big a threat as it's made out to be, he can handle it from range, his heat vision really can hit it from miles away

    Magic, hard to target something that move at near light speeds if it wants to


    Mind control, similar, hard to target a brain if it's moving faster than the speed of thought


    So sure, he has weaknesses they write in to, but given the extent of his powers, he really could handle these things if plot didn't say he couldn't

    He's dealt with much worse

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think he's saying he can be the most powerful while still being affected by those other devices/abilities.
    Yeah but that would be just terrible, and it would either end up as just an informed vulnerability or go against the question of the thread.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Yeah but that would be just terrible, and it would either end up as just an informed vulnerability or go against the question of the thread.
    So are you saying that he should be invulnerable to all those things, or that he should be generally vulnerable? I find either option dissatisfying. I myself like "the most powerful, but not 100% unbeatable."

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think its always more fun to see Superman beat someone more powerful. The fact that he can beat 5th Dimensional Imps, Krptonite Men, and teams of Phantom Zone Criminals make him so great. I don't mind the rules, Kryptonite: Its his off switch/it works great when it's unpredictable. Sometimes he can survive firehose size blasts from Metallo, on others days, Lex's pinky ring takes him down. Plus, he is the only one with a krptonite. I like that that makes him special. Magic? Everyone has a weakness to magic, just like they have a weakness to Science. ( I kind of like the idea of Dr. Sivana wiping out all magic users.) Red Sun radiation, I don't mind that too much but when you throw in specific weaknesses, you have to make all the other powers vague and kind of limitless. Can he always outrun the Flash, no but when he has to, sure of course. That is ultimately "in character" he does the impossible, and that sometimes means breaking his own rules. A pet peeve I have, why wouldn't he prepare for his weaknesses. Batman has a weakness to bullets, so he wears bullet proof stuff. Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite, he literally faces a Kryptonite man, and it's a shock every time someone finds a chunk, or creates a synthetic version. That bothers me about Red Sun radiation too, during the New Krypton saga didn't Lex create flashlight sized red sun generators. I guess I don't mind that either, but you have to be a Lex sized genius.

  11. #26
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    Surely one of the greatest Man of Steel stories ever done is "Where No Superman Has Gone Before" by Len Wein, Jim Starlin and Romeo Tanghal--in DC COMICS PRESENTS 29 (January 1981), the conclusion of the three part story that introduced Mongul. Kal-El has to follow his cousin into the realm of the dead and the Spectre is there to stop him. What I like about this crossover is that it's a battle of ideas more than a battle of powers. This is the kind of thing you can do with the super-powerful Superman.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    ( I kind of like the idea of Dr. Sivana wiping out all magic users.)
    Ooh, there's a neat idea. Has that angle been explored beyond the usual rivalry?

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Surely one of the greatest Man of Steel stories ever done is "Where No Superman Has Gone Before" by Len Wein, Jim Starlin and Romeo Tanghal--in DC COMICS PRESENTS 29 (January 1981), the conclusion of the three part story that introduced Mongul. Kal-El has to follow his cousin into the realm of the dead and the Spectre is there to stop him. What I like about this crossover is that it's a battle of ideas more than a battle of powers. This is the kind of thing you can do with the super-powerful Superman.
    Nice, sounds like a great story.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Ooh, there's a neat idea. Has that angle been explored beyond the usual rivalry?
    I can't remember where, it might have been a cartoon, but I think I remember Dr. Sivana scoffing at Magic somewhere, oh, probably every issue he's in since he faces Capt. Marvel/Shazam. And that DC Comics Presents story is one of the best Superman stories ever. Warworld was such a great idea. I don't even mind that it takes from Star Wars and Death Stars. I always thought the Death Star looked like Apokolips anyways.

  15. #30
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think he's saying he can be the most powerful while still being affected by those other devices/abilities.
    Yes, I'm saying he can be the strongest, fastest, most durable, etc., and still have glaring weaknesses.

    Firestorm or a GL can be less powerful but still beat him because they can manifest kryptonite. WW can beat him if she can get her lasso around him and order him to stop fighting. Zatanna, assuming it's not a straight fight but she just wants to stop him, can just say, "Superman, you lose all your powers" in reverse.

    The Flash can still do stuff he can't like phase through objects or time travel because he gets his speed from the Speed Force and that allows him to do things Superman cannot that are not directly a result of who is faster. And Superman was never officially faster than the Flash. It was always too close to call.

    Or, conversely, he can be just slightly more powerful in the things he can do but not by much but eliminate all the weaknesses like kryptonite and having him be more vulnerable to magic than to other things. Those weaknesses were created BECAUSE he was so much more powerful than everyone else and there needed to be weaknesses to stop him. If he's going to be about the same power level as everyone else, those weaknesses just make him weaker than everyone else.

    But, quite frankly, the way he was portrayed in "Justice League", either version, is EXACTLY what he should be, the SUPERman. My one caveat would be to have a future movie where we realize that he only seemed so powerful against WW because she was trying to restrain him, not fight him or hurt him. So she went against him, strength for strength, headbutt for headbutt, like two 1880s boxers toing the mark and trading punches. Had she really been fighting him rather than trying to hold him, it would have been a real fight.

    But, except for that (and that the Flash will develop and gain esoteric abilities), JL got it exactly right.

    Incidentally, as Kryptonians, I think Supergirl and Powergirl should be at the top too. In that JL situation, if there was no Superman, Supergirl should have been just as much the ringer.
    Last edited by Powerboy; 04-16-2021 at 11:09 AM.
    Power with Girl is better.

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