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  1. #136
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    He's still a powerhouse, just not the fastest. Anyone annoyed with the Flash being faster than Superman's must've been under a rock for a few decades.
    I wasn't arguing that point, though, since I agree the Flash should be the fastest.

    Same reason DC made Jon Kent, story progression and appealing to different fans.
    Not really the same thing, but we'll leave it at that.
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  2. #137
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    But i was talking about post crisis, not about pre modern versions.
    But your entire point is that characters who were created to be comparable to Superman not being able to be so is "disrespectful." the creations happened WAY before post-Crisis and modern versions, so you actually haven't been talking about that era


    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    She is clearly more powerful than all the other typical comparisons, and i doubt anyone else would have their powers in Vallhala, but why did you find it meaningful that Shazam had at 1 point in the past more even comparisons with Superman than Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter?
    She doesn't have her powers in Valhalla, and actually dies in the issues. It doesn't make any sense to bring it up, it's not relevant to this discussion.

    Because we're talking about entire history, not just recent events. By bringing in the decisions of the Silver Age for Wonder Woman and Crisis and the creations of the characters, we are factoring in all history and how things used to be. We can't move the goal posts when it comes time to consider Captain Marvel's feats but move them back for Marston and WW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    I don't think that is arguable at all considering a certain very silly decision of DC in the Silver Age, and Wonder Woman being mostly excluded from the power creep in that era
    I think they were too busy turning her book into a bland heteronormative romance comic to make a conscious decision to exclude her from the power creep.
    There is also the fact that Marston didn't want her to fly even after Superman started, so he ignored the power creep as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    I don't remember any era before the first crisis where consistence was ever a thing?
    lol It wasn't very consistent afterwards either. If anything, it was less so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    About what era are you talking exactly?
    Pre-Crisis Bronze Age. I have quite a few books from that era where Superman rarely crosses over into other peoples books and when he does, they are still the main characters and all characters are treated well. the Phantom Zone mini is again a good showing for WW, GL and Batman even though it's a Kryptonian book. He is undisputedly the #1 guy in that era, and still needed Swamp Thing's help on two occasions. It's really not that hard, for some reason post-Crisis writers and fans make it out to be this insurmountable problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    I still don't see a reason for a shared verse, seemingly without a Justice League where Superman just stays away from the other superheroes, so that he can be the most powerful without negatively affecting them?
    But again, he was the most overall powerful and was on the JL in pre-Crisis and even in the Silver Age JL comics they managed fine. You're not listing a reason for how he's negatively impacting them in any meaningful way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    And him being clearly superior to Wonder Woman or Shazam, kind of makes them meaningless, and is his whole odd Superiorman idea.
    Wait, so we're back to Shazam not meant to be inferior to Superman or Wonder Woman? I thought you said he should be because of post-COIE? There's not a lot of consistency here.

    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    If Superman being the strongest includes downplaying other character's strengths like the Flash's to make him look better then it's not completely ridiculous.
    Except nobody is saying he should be faster than the Flash, have stronger will power than the GL, shapeshift and have telepathy like J'onn, etc. because those were never things to begin with and we have actual published DC material to back that up. Any Superman fan saying he should be more skilled than WW and be able to break her lasso need to shut up, but I don't think there are many Superman fans (at least on here) who actually believe that should be the case.

    Others like the Marvel Family and Captain Atom should be on different Earths. None of the characters involved really benefit from being in the same continuity with each other, especially Billy.

  3. #138
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    good that things change, but in everything. Superman will no longer be the strongest, he will be the second, he will lose all his weaknesses and will appear in others' comics as if they were his own, he will begin to use all the technology of the fortress. ww to be the strongest, by very little, will develop 3 or 4 weaknesses and superman will appear in his comics every 2 or 3 months, without forgetting that superman being a Kryptonian with infinite experience is always described as a naive idiot, now it's his turn To ww, she will be an idiot who does not know the most basic of the modern world and she will be even if she spends 1000 years in it.

  4. #139
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    Man alive! There was a T.V. program called MAN ALIVE in Canada from the 1960s to 2000, which was about faith (but not one of your religious programs)--the series took its title from a poem by a 2nd century bishop--"The glory of God is man fully alive, and the life of man is the vision of God." So that's what I always think of. And in Britain, they had a documentary program called MAN ALIVE (1965 - 1981).

    So I can see the charm in "The Fastest Man Alive"--but when it came to the pre-Crisis Earth-One characters (my favourites) I could never square Barry being the fastest over Superman. It just didn't make sense when I thought it through. IF Barry is a regular guy who just happens to run fast then he wouldn't have all the powers of Superman. The Man of Steel is invulnerable, super-strong, can fly and can fly through space without the need to breathe. It just makes sense to me that Supes would be able to withstand forces that would kill Barry, IF Barry is a "man."

    In order for Barry to be faster than Superman, I'd have to invent all kinds of other powers for him--he'd have to be invulnerable, super-strong, capable of surviving in a total vacuum and capable of becoming something that is faster than light so its material make-up is not bounded by the limitations of electrons, protons and photons. So if Barry were that powerful, why was he wasting his time on Earth and not employing his full potential?

    Maybe Barry isn't actually a human being. Maybe that lightning bolt was actually some kind of god-like force that killed and destroyed Barry and then remade him in an instant, but for some reason that god-force intentionally forgot its actual state and totally became Barry Allen. That would explain how Barry as the Flash can do all the miraculous things he does and how Wally just happened to get the same powers through an accident that seems highly unlikely. So then Barry is actually the speed-god, who isn't bounded by the laws of space or time.

  5. #140
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Man alive! There was a T.V. program called MAN ALIVE in Canada from the 1960s to 2000, which was about faith (but not one of your religious programs)--the series took its title from a poem by a 2nd century bishop--"The glory of God is man fully alive, and the life of man is the vision of God." So that's what I always think of. And in Britain, they had a documentary program called MAN ALIVE (1965 - 1981).

    So I can see the charm in "The Fastest Man Alive"--but when it came to the pre-Crisis Earth-One characters (my favourites) I could never square Barry being the fastest over Superman. It just didn't make sense when I thought it through. IF Barry is a regular guy who just happens to run fast then he wouldn't have all the powers of Superman. The Man of Steel is invulnerable, super-strong, can fly and can fly through space without the need to breathe. It just makes sense to me that Supes would be able to withstand forces that would kill Barry, IF Barry is a "man."

    In order for Barry to be faster than Superman, I'd have to invent all kinds of other powers for him--he'd have to be invulnerable, super-strong, capable of surviving in a total vacuum and capable of becoming something that is faster than light so its material make-up is not bounded by the limitations of electrons, protons and photons. So if Barry were that powerful, why was he wasting his time on Earth and not employing his full potential?

    Maybe Barry isn't actually a human being. Maybe that lightning bolt was actually some kind of god-like force that killed and destroyed Barry and then remade him in an instant, but for some reason that god-force intentionally forgot its actual state and totally became Barry Allen. That would explain how Barry as the Flash can do all the miraculous things he does and how Wally just happened to get the same powers through an accident that seems highly unlikely. So then Barry is actually the speed-god, who isn't bounded by the laws of space or time.
    Back in the '70s, I always felt Barry was just a tad faster than Clark, which is still how I feel about it today. I never really thought about it the way you did, but I do like your analysis.
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  6. #141
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Back in the '70s, I always felt Barry was just a tad faster than Clark, which is still how I feel about it today. I never really thought about it the way you did, but I do like your analysis.
    I agree with you. Speed is Barry's (and all Flashes') thing after all. Naturally, he should be at least somewhat faster than Sups at top speed.
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  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    superpowers were written accurately? No plot armor, no characters seeming to forget their power set, etc.
    At best, he'd be tied with several other heroes.

    But it's weird to be talking about "Accurately" with a genre and medium that is very fictional and involves multiple, different versions of the same character(s).

    Gotta say, I feel for Superman fans sometimes. Not only does your character suffer from consistently poor management, you also get silly fanboy resentment over his power levels, despite the fact that for a long time now, Superman is only consistently portrayed as the strongest hero. Otherwise, dude has been beatable for a long time.

  8. #143
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    flash powers.
    Super velocity.
    shield that protects him and his environment (gives him a resistance comparable to superman and allows him to hit with the same force).
    steal and speed
    vibrate their molecules and those of their enemies.
    travel in time. travel to other dimensions.
    perceive the future.
    That without counting the thousand forces that are connected to the speed force.

  9. #144
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Realism is a sucker's game. Not just in super-hero comics, but in all storytelling.
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  10. #145
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    Well, I have a lot of time on my hands. Or more accurately, instead of thinking about the stuff I should be thinking about, I spend far too much time thinking about super-heroes. And when I do, it seems to me that a lot of them should be more powerful than what we usually see. Characters, like Flash, Atom, Aquaman, Plastic Man, Metamorpho could do so much more with what they have. Yet, those guys rarely get the stories where the super-hero thinks "all this power, so much, the awesome responsibility, the burden" and then goes into exile because he can't handle it anymore. Maybe Flash has done that once or twice. But it seems like only a few get the Dr. Manhattan treatment.

    Wonder Woman is now called a god. What's she doing on Earth? She should be on Mt. Olympus with the other gods staring down at us petty humans and laughing at us.

  11. #146
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Wonder Woman is now called a god. What's she doing on Earth? She should be on Mt. Olympus with the other gods staring down at us petty humans and laughing at us.
    Well, demi-god. But they do seem to treat it as the essentially the same thing

    I really don't get what it is about a superhuman Amazon that modern creators can't wrap their heads around that they need to go the god route. Why the need to insert divine blood into her at all? What was so difficult to understand before?

    To the point where Steppenwolf's "You have the blood of the old gods in you" line in JL made me groan.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Well, demi-god. But they do seem to treat it as the essentially the same thing

    I really don't get what it is about a superhuman Amazon that modern creators can't wrap their heads around that they need to go the god route. Why the need to insert divine blood into her at all? What was so difficult to understand before?

    To the point where Steppenwolf's "You have the blood of the old gods in you" line in JL made me groan.
    They can't even wrap their heads around Superman without making him Jesus. He's just an alien fella's let's leave it at that.

    I know the Christ allegory isn't so heavy in the comics, but it's been in there from time-to-time.

    But yeah, seriously, no one ever questioned why WW or Sups can bench-press mountains before they got struck with the divinity shtick.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But your entire point is that characters who were created to be comparable to Superman not being able to be so is "disrespectful." the creations happened WAY before post-Crisis and modern versions, so you actually haven't been talking about that era
    That isn't and never was my only point.

    She doesn't have her powers in Valhalla, and actually dies in the issues. It doesn't make any sense to bring it up, it's not relevant to this discussion.
    To me it makes sense.

    Because we're talking about entire history, not just recent events. By bringing in the decisions of the Silver Age for Wonder Woman and Crisis and the creations of the characters, we are factoring in all history and how things used to be.
    The decisions for Wonder Woman in the Silver Age were objectively silly, and didn't work out at all, to bring this into a discussion about how characters are meant to be is like bringing Jeansman from New 52 into this

    We can't move the goal posts when it comes time to consider Captain Marvel's feats but move them back for Marston and WW.
    Feats, when turned this into a rumbles discussion, and when was the last time Shazam showed much feats?

    I think they were too busy turning her book into a bland heteronormative romance comic to make a conscious decision to exclude her from the power creep.
    That excludes her from it, and was part of their conscious decision.

    There is also the fact that Marston didn't want her to fly even after Superman started, so he ignored the power creep as well.
    An invisibe jet that can fly fast enough that Wonder Woman can accidentally end up in another universe, is far more ridiculous by modern standards than something almost trivial like flying faster than light on your own.

    lol It wasn't very consistent afterwards either. If anything, it was less so.
    You must talk about a rather short time during only the bronze age.

    Pre-Crisis Bronze Age. I have quite a few books from that era where Superman rarely crosses over into other peoples books and when he does, they are still the main characters and all characters are treated well. the Phantom Zone mini is again a good showing for WW, GL and Batman even though it's a Kryptonian book.
    And then **** like Mongul vs Wonder Woman happened, but to be fair i guess you could say that was the start of a new age already.
    He is undisputedly the #1 guy in that era, and still needed Swamp Thing's help on two occasions. It's really not that hard, for some reason post-Crisis writers and fans make it out to be this insurmountable problem.
    Because an undisputed #1 in a shared verse full of heroes who are not meant to be what any other character in One Punch Man is to Saitama, will sooner or later always run into trouble, even with just 1 but much more with several different writers.

    But again, he was the most overall powerful and was on the JL in pre-Crisis and even in the Silver Age JL comics they managed fine. You're not listing a reason for how he's negatively impacting them in any meaningful way
    Who was doing fine in the Silver Age comics? Wonder Woman didn't, Shazam or Captain Marvel barely existed, Martian Manhunter got worse as Superman became more active in the Justice League, and so on. And do you really want a general list of Superman negatively affecting other superheroes with power? Making a list for Wonder Woman alone would take hours, because there is just so much.

    Wait, so we're back to Shazam not meant to be inferior to Superman or Wonder Woman? I thought you said he should be because of post-COIE? There's not a lot of consistency here.
    Could you please give me a quote where i say Shazam should be inferior to Superman or Wonder Woman? That doesn't even make sense considering that i have said the top superheroes who fit should all be comparable in power in this thread, more than once.
    Except nobody is saying he should be faster than the Flash, have stronger will power than the GL, shapeshift and have telepathy like J'onn, etc. because those were never things to begin with and we have actual published DC material to back that up.
    My first response in this thread was to someone who literally said Superman should be he be the best in each of his powers, which includes speed among other things.

    Any Superman fan saying he should be more skilled than WW and be able to break her lasso need to shut up, but I don't think there are many Superman fans (at least on here) who actually believe that should be the case.
    I would have strongly disagreed if you would have not mentioned on here, because especially the DCEU made it far worse, and not just in regards of claims in comparison with Wonder Woman.

    Others like the Marvel Family and Captain Atom should be on different Earths. None of the characters involved really benefit from being in the same continuity with each other, especially Billy.
    It could probably work, but just without this odd idea that there must be a definitive top dog for some reason.

  14. #149
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    I think the problem with ww goddess and superman jesus is that they are only simple titles, they do not add anything to the characters. If being a goddess allowed ww to connect with the divine universe (other pantheons) I think the fans would not be so angry. If Superman being seen as Jesus allowed him to act as a guide to humanity and a kind of father to the rest of the heroes, I and the rest of the fans would not be so angry.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    I think the problem with ww goddess and superman jesus is that they are only simple titles, they do not add anything to the characters. If being a goddess allowed ww to connect with the divine universe (other pantheons) I think the fans would not be so angry. If Superman being seen as Jesus allowed him to act as a guide to humanity and a kind of father to the rest of the heroes, I and the rest of the fans would not be so angry.
    Honestly it takes away from their character because it puts them in a shadow.

    Wonder Woman does connect with her pantheon, though. Like, all the time. Too much in fact.

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