Would Superman actually be the Most powerful DC hero if....?

[Powerboy]

Surely one of the greatest Man of Steel stories ever done is "Where No Superman Has Gone Before" by Len Wein, Jim Starlin and Romeo Tanghal--in DC COMICS PRESENTS 29 (January 1981), the conclusion of the three part story that introduced Mongul. Kal-El has to follow his cousin into the realm of the dead and the Spectre is there to stop him. What I like about this crossover is that it's a battle of ideas more than a battle of powers. This is the kind of thing you can do with the super-powerful Superman.

Vaguely remember it. A Superman so powerful only the Spectre could stop him on raw power without exploiting his weaknesses (albeit the Spectre is magic but more powerful on raw power too being the right hand of the Presence). Basically, the Silver Age Superman.

[The Darknight Detective]

Superman's bag of tricks can beat anybody else's. No, he isn't omnipotent and can be licked temporarily, but in the end he will win (except against Batman, of course ). It doesn't matter what anybody thinks or wishes, this is just a de facto DC rule.

[Rightoya]

Yes, I'm saying he can be the strongest, fastest, most durable, etc., and still have glaring weaknesses.

Firestorm or a GL can be less powerful but still beat him because they can manifest kryptonite. WW can beat him if she can get her lasso around him and order him to stop fighting. Zatanna, assuming it's not a straight fight but she just wants to stop him, can just say, "Superman, you lose all your powers" in reverse.

That only works if he's barely more powerful in many of his powers, and Zatanna has never a chance if we follow the rules of the thread.

The Flash can still do stuff he can't like phase through objects or time travel because he gets his speed from the Speed Force and that allows him to do things Superman cannot that are not directly a result of who is faster. And Superman was never officially faster than the Flash. It was always too close to call.

Making Superman faster than the character whose whole theme is speed is just a terrible idea.

Or, conversely, he can be just slightly more powerful in the things he can do but not by much but eliminate all the weaknesses like kryptonite and having him be more vulnerable to magic than to other things.

Why?

Those weaknesses were created BECAUSE he was so much more powerful than everyone else and there needed to be weaknesses to stop him. If he's going to be about the same power level as everyone else, those weaknesses just make him weaker than everyone else.

Those weaknesses were created outside of any competition with other superheroes.

But, quite frankly, the way he was portrayed in "Justice League", either version, is EXACTLY what he should be, the SUPERman.

Superman shitting on the rest of the Justice League and making especially WONDER Woman look like an insignificant joke in comparison is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what he should be in a shared verse, even worse in a movie that is supposed to introduce the Justice League, this concept:

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is not much better than the worst Batman is god and anyone else an idiot stories.

My one caveat would be to have a future movie where we realize that he only seemed so powerful against WW because she was trying to restrain him, not fight him or hurt him. So she went against him, strength for strength, headbutt for headbutt, like two 1880s boxers toing the mark and trading punches. Had she really been fighting him rather than trying to hold him, it would have been a real fight.

Superman blitzed her, overpowered her, and even saw her like she would be a statue in his fight with Flash, that future movie would either need to portray that Wonder Woman jobs as much as the Silver Surfer in his worst times or give her an enormous power upgrade.

But, except for that (and that the Flash will develop and gain esoteric abilities), JL got it exactly right.

The DCEU Justice League gave people the impression that the rest of the members are mostly the cheerleaders for Superman, the only way i could see them getting it even more wrong are the worst Batman is god stories.

Incidentally, as Kryptonians, I think Supergirl and Powergirl should be at the top too. In that JL situation, if there was no Superman, Supergirl should have been just as much the ringer.

An entire race making anyone else look bad would be even worse.

[Rightoya]

So are you saying that he should be invulnerable to all those things, or that he should be generally vulnerable? I find either option dissatisfying. I myself like "the most powerful, but not 100% unbeatable."

I am saying that he should be not the most powerful in all his powers, because making anyone else look bad is a terrible concept for a shared verse.

[Aahz]

Superman would not. Firestorm or Green Lantern should be able to produce Kryptonite in an instant, he'd be vulnerable to any psychic or magical attack.

Don't know.
If "accurately" written he could thanks to his Super Speed guys like Firestorm, Green Lantern and most of DC Magic users out before they could even act.

That wouldn't work against Flash and similar Speedsters, but those lack the Super Strength and Durabilty to go up against Superman.

That would imo only leave Characters with similar power sets to his (Wonder Woman, Shazam , Martian Manhunter ...) but I'm not really sure which of these characters can match his Speed, and of course some cosmic beeing like the Spectre but I think we should keep those out of the discussion.

[Jim Kelly]

Vaguely remember it.

It's reprinted in SUPERMAN IN THE EIGHTIES (2006), SHOWCASE PRESENTS: THE SPECTRE (2012), SHOWCASE PRESENTS: DC COMICS PRESENTS: THE SUPERMAN TEAM-UPS Vol. 2 (2013). Stupidly it's not reprinted in SUPERMAN VS. MONGUL (2014) even though the other two parts of the trilogy are reprinted in that book.

They should really have done a Jim Starlin collection.

[SuperX]

Jeez can't a SUPERIOR character just be shown to be just that? Am I the only one who read Supreme? Am I the only one who sees every knockoff superman in every other comic company be able to be the top dog that they are? Its like some of you have a problem with Just superman, and let all the insanely powerful characters have a pass.

[NaVi]

Whenever you talk about the speed of flash and superman, they end up saying that superman cannot be faster than flash because speed is the trick of flash.
1: flash has many other powers apart from speed.
2: the first superhero with superspeed was superman, speed is superman's tuco
3: the logic of flash fans, is that since superspeed is his main power, there is nothing wrong that he is millions of times faster than another hero, following that logic, the main power of superman is his strength, There is nothing wrong with him being millions of times stronger than any other hero.

[The Darknight Detective]

Whenever you talk about the speed of flash and superman, they end up saying that superman cannot be faster than flash because speed is the trick of flash.
1: flash has many other powers apart from speed.
2: the first superhero with superspeed was superman, speed is superman's tuco
3: the logic of flash fans, is that since superspeed is his main power, there is nothing wrong that he is millions of times faster than another hero, following that logic, the main power of superman is his strength, There is nothing wrong with him being millions of times stronger than any other hero.

I don't think Flash should be a million times faster, but he definitely should be the fastest man alive.

[Johnny Thunders!]

My only problem with that is, does that mean Hawkman is faster at flying or is Aquaman a better swimmer. Superman can potentially fly through solid metal and swim through magma. Better yet, is Detective Chimp a better detective than Batman since Batman also knows martial arts?

[Rightoya]

Jeez can't a SUPERIOR character just be shown to be just that? Am I the only one who read Supreme? Am I the only one who sees every knockoff superman in every other comic company be able to be the top dog that they are? Its like some of you have a problem with Just superman, and let all the insanely powerful characters have a pass.

He is SUPERman not SUPERIORman, and it's news to me that Hyperion is the top dog of Marvel, and several of the other DC characters are not meant to be inferior in certain or most attributes.

He could be as unstoppable as possible in his own verse, but not in a shared verse.

[Rightoya]

My only problem with that is, does that mean Hawkman is faster at flying or is Aquaman a better swimmer. Superman can potentially fly through solid metal and swim through magma. Better yet, is Detective Chimp a better detective than Batman since Batman also knows martial arts?

Why should be Hawkman a faster flyer, and since when is Superman a better swimmer than Aquaman? Using his flight ability underwater isn't the same like regular swimming.

[mathew101281]

Don't know.
If "accurately" written he could thanks to his Super Speed guys like Firestorm, Green Lantern and most of DC Magic users out before they could even act.

That wouldn't work against Flash and similar Speedsters, but those lack the Super Strength and Durabilty to go up against Superman.

That would imo only leave Characters with similar power sets to his (Wonder Woman, Shazam , Martian Manhunter ...) but I'm not really sure which of these characters can match his Speed, and of course some cosmic beeing like the Spectre but I think we should keep those out of the discussion.

Shazam and Martian Manhunter to me have the best chance. The Martian isn’t as fast or strong but he is strong and fast enough to buy himself time to use his telepathy to do A lot of damage. Superman has some resilience to mental attacks but he isn’t invulnerable to them like he is to physical attacks. Shazam in my opinion should beat Superman, and it’s pretty contrived that DC has him loosing to Sups so much. Superman might be slightly stronger, I’m not sure about speed (but they seem pretty comparable) but to me that’s all trumped by the fact that Shazam has extremely powerful magical attacks at his disposal. Superman, who doesn’t have any additional defenses against magical attacks should not be shrugging off mystical lightning like some comic creators show him doing.

[SuperX]

Whenever you talk about the speed of flash and superman, they end up saying that superman cannot be faster than flash because speed is the trick of flash.
1: flash has many other powers apart from speed.
2: the first superhero with superspeed was superman, speed is superman's tuco
3: the logic of flash fans, is that since superspeed is his main power, there is nothing wrong that he is millions of times faster than another hero, following that logic, the main power of superman is his strength, There is nothing wrong with him being millions of times stronger than any other hero.

Ppl are not gonna care, all they see is superman equals old and over rated to them, and "their" character should be "respected".

[Rightoya]

Shazam and Martian Manhunter to me have the best chance. The Martian isn’t as fast or strong but he is strong and fast enough to buy himself time to use his telepathy to do A lot of damage. Superman has some resilience to mental attacks but he isn’t invulnerable to them like he is to physical attacks. Shazam in my opinion should beat Superman, and it’s pretty contrived that DC has him loosing to Sups so much. Superman might be slightly stronger, I’m not sure about speed (but they seem pretty comparable) but to me that’s all trumped by the fact that Shazam has extremely powerful magical attacks at his disposal. Superman, who doesn’t have any additional defenses against magical attacks should not be shrugging off mystical lightning like some comic creators show him doing.

In that case Wonder Woman would have the best chance, very similar divine empowerments like Shazam, mystical lightning, skill and mystical weapons. But i would say Martian Manhunter is the best bet.