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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    It is what it is and no amount of discussion here will change it, other than getting more people to like your favorites (without tearing down the others you dislike - that's always a losing preposition).
    Would that be also your response to any Superman got disrespected by Batman thread, or other threads like that? Superman isn't even nearly as popular anymore as he was several decade ago, and also isn't even the most popular DC character anymore, so does that mean it would be a great idea for DC to just write Batman let's Superman look like a fool and his super-power like a joke stories from now on?

    Superman in fact isn't this unbeatable top dog some people talk about here anymore, and his popularity didn't even prevent something like Death Earth or something like Heroes in Crisis from happening, so i don't even understand why we are talking about Superman like we would be still deep into the Silver Age?

  2. #92
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Would that be also your response to any Superman got disrespected by Batman thread, or other threads like that? Superman isn't even nearly as popular anymore as he was several decade ago, and also isn't even the most popular DC character anymore, so does that mean it would be a great idea for DC to just write Batman let's Superman look like a fool and his super-power like a joke stories from now on?
    FYI, I like Bats only a shade more than Superman, since they have been my two DC favorites since The Wild Wild West was still on CBS (yes, I'm old). Now for your question: I haven't been talking about disrespecting anybody. Having one superhero as more powerful than another and writing all of the characters in a respectful way are not mutually exclusive acts. I grew up reading Bronze Age comics and it was done constantly.

    Superman in fact isn't this unbeatable top dog some people talk about here anymore, and his popularity didn't even prevent something like Death Earth or something like Heroes in Crisis from happening, so i don't even understand why we are talking about Superman like we would be still deep into the Silver Age?
    Superman is clearly #2 popularity-wise. Other than Batman, no other DC superhero sells more comics than he does.
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  3. #93
    Incredible Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    And what are Wonder Woman's and Shazam's thing in your reasoning, and since when equals the highest physical strength even winning all 1on1s?

    Why don't just give up the concept of the shared verse, if a shared verse apparently means that Superman needs to make other superheroes look bad because it is allegedly his thing, and why don't we discuss about Batman instead of Superman anyway if we use the golden cow argument considering that it is the actual golden cow Batman's thing to make superheroes including Superman look bad?
    Superman being the strongest doesnt make the others look bad.
    You only need a powerfull enemy that requieres the full team and the spotlight is shared. Superman doesnt even need to be focus.

    Im not saying that Superman cant lose just the idea that any other superhero is going to be declared the strongest even if they are a match to him.
    Last edited by Lapsus; 04-19-2021 at 06:57 AM.

  4. #94
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    I think the supernatural heroes are even more restricted than the science based ones. In fiction, it always seems like there's consequences for every magic act and sometimes it's better not to do anything at all than to take the risk of unleashing demonic forces on the world. And since the writers can make the rules up as they go along, there's no guessing what could happen next. At least with the pseudo-science in comic books, you have a good chance of knowing what the rules are at the outset.

  5. #95
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    Fash is a thousand times faster than Superman, nothing happens.
    WW is a thousand times more skilled than Superman, nothing happens.
    Green Lantern can create kryptonite, nothing happens.
    Superman is a little stronger, how is it possible that you insult and humiliate my favorite character in that way, Superman is **** he does not deserve to be strong, he has to be a weakling with a thousand weaknesses,yes, that is Superman . really that the hatred for superman reaches a level that is hard to believe.

  6. #96
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    Fash is a thousand times faster than Superman, nothing happens.
    WW is a thousand times more skilled than Superman, nothing happens.
    Green Lantern can create kryptonite, nothing happens.
    Superman is a little stronger, how is it possible that you insult and humiliate my favorite character in that way, Superman is **** he does not deserve to be strong, he has to be a weakling with a thousand weaknesses,yes, that is Superman . really that the hatred for superman reaches a level that is hard to believe.
    Heh. The more popular you are, the more flak is coming your way (at least post-COIE - I don't recall this kind of stuff before then, except for the Marvel vs. DC crap).
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  7. #97
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    If not Superman, then who? Someone has to be the top super-hero. Who else should it be?
    Other people's favorites That's the long and short of it. The order readers seem to think this wasn't as much of an issue pre-COIE, and even as someone who wasn't alive during that period, it certainly seems that way. Pre-COIE we had Superman as the overall most powerful and best, but he was just as helpless as everybody else when Woodrue held the Earth for ransom in Swamp Thing. Were the older writers just better at balancing things out than new ones?

    The only non-Super related hero that should be comparable to Superman while living in the same continuity as him is Wonder Woman, with MM close behind them both. Captain Marvel should be dead even with him, but he and the Marvel Family should also be on Earth-5/S. Captain Atom should be on Earth-4. These characters are all big fish and Clutter Earth is too small of a pond for all of them.

    The Spectre is also way beyond the average superhero stuff, so he IMO shouldn't count as a superhero in the community more powerful than Superman. He's not worth bringing up

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    What, are you referring to Wonder Woman's piercing weakness?

    Also Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman have superior defenses than Shazam, because intangibility and bracelets, shield and/or aegis shield are better than Shazam's physical toughness, he gets hurt by heat vision while Martian Manhunter can phase through it and Wonder Woman even deflect it back as examples.
    When has Shazam been especially vulnerable to the heat vision?

    Because DC has a history of riffing on the meta aspect of the real life lawsuit to present Captain Marvel as the one who is dead even with Superman with no clear cut winner, not WW or MM.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 04-19-2021 at 09:22 AM.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    Fash is a thousand times faster than Superman, nothing happens.
    WW is a thousand times more skilled than Superman, nothing happens.
    Green Lantern can create kryptonite, nothing happens.
    Superman is a little stronger, how is it possible that you insult and humiliate my favorite character in that way, Superman is **** he does not deserve to be strong, he has to be a weakling with a thousand weaknesses,yes, that is Superman . really that the hatred for superman reaches a level that is hard to believe.
    If DC's fastest man alive wasn't DC's fastest man alive, a lot of people would be asking questions.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  9. #99
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Other people's favorites That's the long and short of it. The order readers seem to think this wasn't as much of an issue pre-COIE, and even as someone who wasn't alive during that period, it certainly seems that way. Pre-COIE we had Superman as the overall most powerful and best, but he was just as helpless as everybody else when Woodrue held the Earth for ransom in Swamp Thing. Were the older writers just better at balancing things out than new ones?
    Editorial control was probably tighter back then, FWIW.
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  10. #100
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Editorial control was probably tighter back then, FWIW.
    Seems like it.

    Because back then when Superman's reputation as the strongest was in place we still have J'onn making a valiant showing in standing up to him in the Mongul arc that lead to the later Spectre showdown. The Phantom Zone mini starred Superman and Supergirl, but had good showings for Batman, GL and especially Wonder Woman, who solos a rampaging Kryptonian with her lasso in under two pages. We have Alan Moore having a lot of clear reverence for Superman but also writing him as requiring Swamp Thing's help in one story (Jungle Line). The NTT managed to be DC's hottest book with its (at the time) most popular characters that still guest starred Superman in one issue with his reputation and the Titans reacting accordingly. Everyone was the hero of their own story and the big epic crossovers that required somebody to get nerfed weren't much of a thing. None of this resulted in bad comics.

    Wonder Woman got a lot of bad stuff during this period, but most of it sprung from writers on her own book. Like is Superman being stronger the reason for her turning into Emma Peel and fighting a racist egg? No. She actually fared well in the Silver and Bronze Age Justice League. Better than she does in a lot of the modern comics or the movie, where the problem isn't the power gap between her and Superman but that it's too big. The movie rather stupidly seems to put her closer to Aquaman's level than Superman's which is not how it should be. Even Pre-COIE as a rule didn't do that to her.

  11. #101
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    This stuff really come down to how physics work in your comics,
    if you have cartoon physics as Morrison pointed out in Multiversity, you can't really get hurt,
    but if you have more realistic physics like Invincible, people should be punching bloody holes in each other given their strength and speed,
    then you would have a lot of broken limbs and fractured bones, can't say that's PG-13.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wonder Woman got a lot of bad stuff during this period, but most of it sprung from writers on her own book. Like is Superman being stronger the reason for her turning into Emma Peel and fighting a racist egg? No. She actually fared well in the Silver and Bronze Age Justice League.
    I realize you're just being funny , but the racist egg was when she was still at full strength and under Robert Kanigher, Ross Andru and Mike Esposito. The Modesty Blaise style Diana Prince began with Mike Sekowsky and Denny O'Neil working for Jack Miller editor and Carmine Infantino editorial director.

    Diana gave up her magic, when the Amazons left for another dimension and she didn't want to go with them. So then she had no powers per se, but she still managed to put up a good fight thanks to martial arts training and great art.

    This trend toward heroes giving up their powers and wearing regular street clothes happened frequently in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Maybe as a reaction against Batmanina and the Camp explosion--people being fickle turned against everything super-heroic just as fast as they had embraced all that kitsch. And National Periodical Publication's sales fell precipitously--and given WONDER WOMAN wasn't a big seller to begin with, I imagine the bottom fell right out--so going for something completely different was a way to save a title they couldn't cancel (owing to their deal with the Marston family).

    But every super-hero was weakened during this period. Supergirl's powers winked out (because she was just a girl), Green Lantern was powered down when he went to find America. The Teen Titans started wearing their street clothes. Superman's robots wouldn't work and he was drained of power by the Sand Creature. Batman stopped fighting colourful super-villains and beat up on thugs in dark alleys instead. Dick Grayson quit the old Wayne Manor and the Batcave was out of operation. Martian Manhunter, after a bout of amnesia, left the Earth to find his people, while his old haunt, THE HOUSE OF MYSTERY, took on Len Wein's identical twin as its caretaker. Green Arrow lost all his money and became socially concerned yet his ward ended up nearly killing himself on drugs. Black Canary saw her husband killed and went to Earth-One where she nearly fell in with the Manson Family--or maybe the Hell's Angels. Hawkman, the Atom, Aquaman and the Spectre all lost their titles and were left homeless--I think the Spectre actually was blasted into the ether before he returned on another Earth. Batgirl even quit fighting crime completely so she could go to Washington and fight the power.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    If DC's fastest man alive wasn't DC's fastest man alive, a lot of people would be asking questions.
    the fastest first man alive was superman, the strongest first man alive was superman, the toughest first man alive was superman. I suppose questions will have to be asked.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    the fastest first man alive was superman, the strongest first man alive was superman, the toughest first man alive was superman. I suppose questions will have to be asked.
    So was whoever was the fastest before Usain Bolt. Doesn't mean that person was slow.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    the fastest first man alive was superman, the strongest first man alive was superman, the toughest first man alive was superman. I suppose questions will have to be asked.
    I don't believe Superman was ever as fast as Jay Garrick before the latter was created in 1939. I'm not even sure if he were as fast as Wonder Woman at the start of her publishing career. Obviously, Clark's speed was ramped up as time went on.

    Maybe someone like Jim Kelly might be able to elaborate on this.
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