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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This sentence is honestly mind-boggling. You are basically an advocate for sweatshops at this point. You don't care how things are made as long as you get the stuff.

    This is beyond hypocrisy. You are basically saying that you want more MCU stuff and not only are you not bothered by creators not getting compensated you out and out admit that Disney-Marvel won't feel an incentive to do so if they weren't accessing IP that they can fully tap into without paying talent commensurate income.

    Say what you want about the guilty liberal worried about sweatshops while using their iPhone and lounging in the sun, that's still a less ghastly sight than people claiming to be fans openly becoming full time gangsters.

    At the very least, I might think it's time you change your username, associating yourself with a superhero who is a defender of justice and fights corruption is galling when you basically talk like the Kingpin.
    I don’t think Mike was advocating doing that or portraying it as a good thing..I thought he was suggesting this is sort of ruthless thing Disney might do. (i.e. if fan pressure forced Disney to make retrospective payments to comic creators, Disney would look for another, cheaper source of film material).

    My reaction at time was...that Disney partly bought Marvel exactly because it does provide them with a healthy source of royalty free material, and realistically they won’t readily give it up. (i.e. Mike was theorising about a situation we are never going to see in this life.)
    Last edited by JackDaw; 04-19-2021 at 07:22 AM.

  2. #182
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Past that...

    I still haven't seen a single even halfway decent argument for why Marvel and the mouse should not at least make an attempt at fairly compensating for using his work for more than the one time they actually paid him for.
    There is an interesting moral question about how companies that make money off superheroes should act.

    What would Reed Richards, Tony Stark, T'Challa, Professor X, or the Wasp do if they're continuing to make money off of someone else's work?

    Hell, the Kingpin would probably write a check.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    ...that Disney partly bought Marvel exactly because it does provide them with a healthy source of royalty free material, and realistically they won’t readily give it up...
    I think Disney did at least partially buy Marvel for this reason.

    Although, I think they were aware that some of the rights around Marvel’s IP was problematic.

    Disney had to have some idea about the state of Marvel’s IP, moreso than back in the day when Cadence bought Marvel. Sean Howe’s book said that Cadence really had no idea that title to Marvel’s IP was so disputed. Cadence’s own policies in regard to contracts for creators was at once lax and coercive — the infamous check endorsements — that it probably only made matters worse. I think it’s important to note the policies were lax to keep bringing in valuable creators and their work, while also setting up an environment to claim rights not agreed to by the parties involved. Yes, it was to make space to rip off the creators.

    Disney I am sure knew this, that the properties were not entirely free. That’s why when it came down to brass tacks with the Kirbys, finally, they settled. Same with Joe Simon. That’s also why they settled with Sony over Spider-Man rights, and partially why they bought Fox. Disney knew Marvel’s properties were in some dispute, and Disney is clearly willing and able to deal with it.

  4. #184
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I think Disney did at least partially buy Marvel for this reason.
    Disney has long been the biggest IP crooks of all time. They moved heaven and earth to have Public Domain laws extended so Mickey wouldn't fall in, which is ridiculous since their entire business model is mining fairy tales and stuff in the public domain to make high budget children's animation. Walt Disney himself was a union-busting a--hole (also the only one in Hollywood who hosted Leni Reifenstahl when she made a visit -- never forget) and he never properly credited Iwerks and the Nine, for their contributions.

    And Disney's treatment of comics creators who work on the Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge, and Mickey Mouse stuff (which across the world is supremely popular and in America at its height sold more than Superman, Carl Barks's Uncle Scrooge was the best-selling comic in the '50s at one point) is famously terrible. Carl Barks wasn't credited until fans figured out that one guy alone was doing it (called "the good duck artist") and then tracked down Barks forcing Disney to 'fess up. Carl Barks was a far greater artist than Walt Disney ever was and he never earned as much as he should. Don Rosa is treated even worse as I mentioned before.

    They also had a problem in the 2000s and 2010s where many original in-house IPs faltered (John Carter of Mars, The Lone Ranger) and in the case of their one major success (Pirates of the Caribbean), it became an issue since it was all centered on Johnny Depp and then Depp's personal life went into crisis and discredit. So when Bob Iger came in, he decided to use their big fat checkbook to buy stuff. First Lucasfilm, and then Marvel, and then Fox. Under Iger's tenure, the number of original in-house Disney IP has declined sharply.

    Although, I think they were aware that some of the rights around Marvel’s IP was problematic.
    Disney knew everything. They have an army of private investigators and lobbyists, and obviously they would have combed through Marvel to know fully well what they are getting into. All that stuff would have come up during the brass-tacks phase of the merger, and Marvel would have had to be forthright and honest to Disney because they are the Capo di tutti Capi after all.

    Disney I am sure knew this, that the properties were not entirely free. That’s why when it came down to brass tacks with the Kirbys, finally, they settled. Same with Joe Simon. That’s also why they settled with Sony over Spider-Man rights, and partially why they bought Fox. Disney knew Marvel’s properties were in some dispute, and Disney is clearly willing and able to deal with it.
    Disney has its own expertise with this.

    I find it hilarious that Disney promoted Kirby as a Legend and apparently screens documentaries about Kirby in-house at their theme parks, which is nice and all, but it's profoundly hypocritical.

    It seems we are caught between liberal hypocrisy and open gangsterism.

  5. #185
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Jack Kirby and maybe Stan Lee invented Baron Zemo, including his role in the Masters of Evil, which the same creative team also invented. All credit would go to those two creators in this case, and Marvelís abysmal treatment of Kirby is well documented. However, Marvel settled with the Kirby estate and by all accounts, the Kirby heirs are finally happy. So, the estate of the creator of that particular character has been compensated, finally.

    Although, hey, if Marvel would cut checks to Roy Thomas, Tony Isabella, J.M. DiMatteis, Roger Stern, Kurt Busiek and Mike Zeck for all their contributions to the Marvel universe, it would be a great thing for them to do that as well. I donít think thatís charity. Thatís fairly compensating people for their work.
    Do you think Disney would use Zemo in the Falcon and Winter Soldier storyline under those circumstances?

    I also think it's worth looking at it from the other angle. Suppose Marvel offered Ed Brubaker the opportunity to write for them and said he could write Captain America and receive no royalties for derivative works such as movies but would receive royalties for movies for any original character he creates that is successful enough to garner an audience that is turned into a movie. Which project would Ed Brubaker have taken? I think the assumption premising that people should be given royalties for derivative works is that they are essentially trapped in scenarios with no choice but to seek out Marvel and to work on an established character.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

    Interested in reading Daredevil? Not sure what to read next? Why not check out the Daredevil Book Club for some ideas?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Do you think Disney would use Zemo in the Falcon and Winter Soldier storyline under those circumstances?...
    What circumstances?

    As for Brubaker — Marvel, pay Ed Brubaker more money!!! Make him happy!! Period. Who cares about free publicity, etc.

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    If Marvel/Disney had to pay substantial amount of money for their usage of Zemo then they wouldn't use him at all since he could be easily replaced by "original villain". And it is same for many other minor characters, like half of the cast in Guardians movies could probably be replaced by new characters because they had very little in common with their comics versions.

  8. #188
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    What circumstances?
    If they had to compensate six or seven comic creators every time they wanted to use him
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

    Interested in reading Daredevil? Not sure what to read next? Why not check out the Daredevil Book Club for some ideas?

  9. #189
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    did everyone get their money yet
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  10. #190
    Fantastic Member Chainsaw Vigilante's Avatar
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    Unfortunately by and large the comics industry has been like this from the beginning.

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