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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


    Ed...
    I am not sure if you know him in person or not, but this message board operates on the presumption of anonymity in any case. So I take it you don't in fact know Brubaker in real life.

    If that's so, I think it would be most courteous and cordial if you don't presume to use his first name, especially since you voice opinions to the effect of making any friendship with him in real life impossible. It's a bit ghoulish to spend several message boards voicing contempt for a writer/creator and then addressing him by first-name to essentially condescend to a professional writer who knows the business and the score far better than any of us here.

    What he wants is for them to be generous since his work was such a hit and give him more money than they had original agreed on.
    In most other media businesses - music, films, TV - more success means people negotiate higher raises, higher wages, higher royalties and so on and so forth. IN a non-creative business if you do good at a job it's expected you get bonuses, rewards, a raise, a promotion.

    So yeah, if his work is successful, Brubaker is within his rights to ask for more.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Why pedantiic?
    I meant responding to the fact that Brubaker worked for Marvel before it was bought by Disney.

    I was (and am) interested in your answer.
    I get that.

    In general, I think I’ve just become more pragmatic (or cynical) as I get older.
    Being pragmatic or cynical is a useful coping mechanism and a decent strategy of survival, but it's not by any means a normative one.

    Things being unfair and difficult doesn't mean you should accept or validate the status-quo or move against people voicing complaints about the same.

  2. #47
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    Eddie knew he didn’t own CapA or B-Buck or The Arctic Assassin. When you play with someone else’s toys, you don’t bring em home with you. Those are the rules. E-Brub knew the rules.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    Eddie knew he didn’t own CapA or B-Buck or The Arctic Assassin. When you play with someone else’s toys, you don’t bring em home with you. Those are the rules. E-Brub knew the rules.
    In other words, your attitude to Brubaker is...


    Ed Brubaker noted the mentality of fandom well when he defended Alan Moore:
    https://www.comicsreporter.com/index...ker2012summer/

    ----------------
    SPURGEON: Which seems even odder to argue in this case because we've just gone through 25 years of this corporation not doing this.

    BRUBAKER: Yeah, it looks especially bad that Watchmen was this special thing they left alone, they let it be a novel, which is what it was.

    Really, though, the saddest part for me is the "**** Alan Moore; he signed a shitty contract" thing. That's really, really sad. When JMS at the Chicago Comicon -- or wherever that was -- said, "Did Alan Moore get a shitty contract? Yes. Jack Kirby got a shitty contract, too." That really, to me, when I was reading that I was like "Holy ****." Siegel's and Shuster's and Kirby's shitty deals are now being used to defend a project as opposed to...

    SPURGEON: ... indict a company.

    BRUBAKER: Yeah. Usually, that would be the opposite. Are we living in opposite-land now? "So and so got a shitty contract, too, so just get over it." Like I said, the poor treatment of creators by "the Big Two" was supposed to be part of the past. They'd changed their policies to be more creator-friendly, so things like this weren't supposed to happen anymore. And yet here it is, the only time during my entire career where we've seen the writer of a book standing there saying "I don't want this thing to happen." And people are just giving him the finger.
    --------------

    Controversies like this are very good at revealing people for who they truly are, and it shows how thoroughly corrupted in values superhero fandom has become.

  4. #49
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In other words, your attitude to Brubaker is...


    Ed Brubaker noted the mentality of fandom well when he defended Alan Moore:
    https://www.comicsreporter.com/index...ker2012summer/

    ----------------
    SPURGEON: Which seems even odder to argue in this case because we've just gone through 25 years of this corporation not doing this.

    BRUBAKER: Yeah, it looks especially bad that Watchmen was this special thing they left alone, they let it be a novel, which is what it was.

    Really, though, the saddest part for me is the "**** Alan Moore; he signed a shitty contract" thing. That's really, really sad. When JMS at the Chicago Comicon -- or wherever that was -- said, "Did Alan Moore get a shitty contract? Yes. Jack Kirby got a shitty contract, too." That really, to me, when I was reading that I was like "Holy ****." Siegel's and Shuster's and Kirby's shitty deals are now being used to defend a project as opposed to...

    SPURGEON: ... indict a company.

    BRUBAKER: Yeah. Usually, that would be the opposite. Are we living in opposite-land now? "So and so got a shitty contract, too, so just get over it." Like I said, the poor treatment of creators by "the Big Two" was supposed to be part of the past. They'd changed their policies to be more creator-friendly, so things like this weren't supposed to happen anymore. And yet here it is, the only time during my entire career where we've seen the writer of a book standing there saying "I don't want this thing to happen." And people are just giving him the finger.
    --------------

    Controversies like this are very good at revealing people for who they truly are, and it shows how thoroughly corrupted in values superhero fandom has become.
    It’s like he’s never had a real job before. He should just put ‘Princess’ on his resume for next time. You either make money for other people or you make money for yourself. Have your own sense of agency. Take the decision into your own hands and own it. Ed isn’t owning it. He’s whining. Being sanctimonious isn’t helping anyone.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    It’s like he’s never had a real job before. He should just put ‘Princess’ on his resume for next time. You either make money for other people or you make money for yourself. Have your own sense of agency. Take the decision into your own hands and own it. Ed isn’t owning it. He’s whining. Being sanctimonious isn’t helping anyone.
    Spoken like someone who's under Complete Control:

  6. #51
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spoken like someone who's under Complete Control:
    That’s so fucking edgy. Like kiwi lime pie. Like leaving a baby on a bus. Like ducks with heads.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    That’s so fucking edgy. Like kiwi lime pie. Like leaving a baby on a bus. Like ducks with heads.
    Now you speak like the people who are running the world

    How's that for edgy.

    The point is your posts reveal contempt for the hard work, blood, sweat and tears towards the creators of the comics. In response to Brubaker worrying about not being able to provide for his family after he's gone when the fruit of his labor is providing doubloons for people who had nothing to do with his work...all you have to offer is narcissistic playground taunting to someone with a long career in the medium.

    Being a human being, or showing basic decency, or even gratitude as a comics' fan, hasn't gone out of fashion. It's generally very highly recommended.

    Oh and spare me the comments about you were never a fan of Brubaker anyway. I am sure it's at the tip of the fingers.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 04-17-2021 at 09:12 PM.

  8. #53
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Now you speak like the people who are running the world

    How's that for edgy.

    The point is your posts reveal contempt for the hard work, blood, sweat and tears towards the creators of the comics. In response to Brubaker worrying about not being able to provide for his family after he's gone when the fruit of his labor is providing doubloons for people who had nothing to do with his work...all you have to offer is narcissistic playground taunting to someone with a long career in the medium.

    Being a human being, or showing basic decency, or even gratitude as a comics' fan, hasn't gone out of fashion. It's generally very highly recommended.

    Oh and spare me the comments about you were never a fan of Brubaker anyway. I am sure it's at the tip of the fingers.
    I don’t know what nerve I struck but damn, it’s a good one. We all worry about legacy and providing for our families when we’re gone. That’s not exclusive to the arts or comics. I’ve worked for many international companies and made them millions in return for a modest salary. That’s the exchange. That’s how it works. Like I said, you make money for others or you make money for yourself. One day you realize it and make a change or you don’t.

    Ed’s wallowing in self pity over past endeavors is no different from what I did and where I was when I left the corporate world. I was tired of making money for people that weren’t me. But I don’t dwell in their success that is still based on my hard work. There’s no point in that. And I do constantly hear about it. If it weren’t for me and systems I created and implemented, several of the largest real estate investment companies in the world would have lost huge contracts. I’ve made other people millionaires but not myself. It’s hard sometimes and one sympathizes.

    But when it comes up, and it does, I don’t dwell on it. I think about what I do have. I don’t think about what if’s or maybe I should haves. I think about today and I think about the future. I try not to think about yesterday. I can’t change what has happened but I can prepare for what is to come.

    I get that the righteousness of youth is fiery and I love it. I hope yours never fades and I hope you don’t have to experience things the way that Ed has or I have. Hell, even comics has broken my heart. I could tell you a great story about my LoSH pitch that got turned down in favor of the threeboot. Or the time I pitched a series called Hypertime and got three issues into scripting before getting the axe.

    Ed is a great writer and decisions he might regret are being shoved in his face right now. That sucks. I love his work and look forward to his next project. His X-Men run is actually a favorite. I finally picked up Bad Weekend so I’m in for a Criminal reread.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    Ed’s...
    Do you actually know him in real life to address him on first-name basis? I just gotta ask because the decorum is to address authors either as full name, surname, or something formal like Mr.---

    To reiterate, it's somewhat ghoulish to use the first name in a context where you are basically condescending the man when he poured out his heart to the public.

    ...when I left the corporate world.
    I empathize with the exploitation of your software patents and I hope you find the time and means to address your situation.

    At the same time, I don't get the logic that "because I got screwed over, that makes me have no sympathy for people who get screwed over". That kind of mentality doesn't fly in any other context. To use a comics metaphor, Batman's trauma over losing his parents didn't make him lose all sympathy for who people got orphaned in turn, did it?

  10. #55
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Do you actually know him in real life to address him on first-name basis? I just gotta ask because the decorum is to address authors either as full name, surname, or something formal like Mr.---

    To reiterate, it's somewhat ghoulish to use the first name in a context where you are basically condescending the man when he poured out his heart to the public.



    I empathize with the exploitation of your software patents and I hope you find the time and means to address your situation.

    At the same time, I don't get the logic that "because I got screwed over, that makes me have no sympathy for people who get screwed over". That kind of mentality doesn't fly in any other context. To use a comics metaphor, Batman's trauma over losing his parents didn't make him lose all sympathy for who people got orphaned in turn, did it?
    There’s nothing to address. I had no patents. I was hired to do a job and I did it. That’s what happened with Mr Brubaker as well. He was hired for a job and did it. No one got screwed over. He may not feel that the long term has worked out in his favor but he was not screwed over. Nor was I. No one was exploited and I don’t understand, in this situation at least, how you can come to that conclusion. That’s where I’m stuck. It’s called having a job. Sometimes it’s flipping burgers, sometimes it’s making ad copy and sometimes it’s coming up with a story you don’t own. But that’s the contract. Work, get paid. Maybe there’s a bonus but that’s not guaranteed. We can talk about risk and reward as well. Mr Brubaker didn’t take the risk. He didn’t have money on the line. Marvel did. They put money up front to make the book. If it failed, Marvel would shoulder the failure. Now, Mr Brubaker does that. And now he gets the reward as well.

  11. #56
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    Regardless of context I don't think I've ever even thought or posted about the guy as anything but Brubaker.

    Just like Alan Moore, have you ever seen anybody refer to him as Alan? Repeatedly?

    This thread smells funny, and not in a ha-ha way.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildling View Post
    Regardless of context I don't think I've ever even thought or posted about the guy as anything but Brubaker.

    Just like Alan Moore, have you ever seen anybody refer to him as Alan? Repeatedly?

    This thread smells funny, and not in a ha-ha way.
    See, this guy gets it!

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildling View Post
    Regardless of context I don't think I've ever even thought or posted about the guy as anything but Brubaker.

    Just like Alan Moore, have you ever seen anybody refer to him as Alan? Repeatedly?

    This thread smells funny, and not in a ha-ha way.
    I must admit i am baffled why you are so concerned on some one being referred to by first name, when the overall context makes it absolutely clear who is being referred to. (It just feels like a diversionary tactic, an avoidance of the real substance of the debate.)
    Last edited by JackDaw; 04-18-2021 at 03:25 AM.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    See, this guy gets it!
    Really??

    Do you regard calling some one by their first name by itself rude? Or really pretending close acquaintance??

    In UK It’s undoubtedly regarded as far ruder to refer to some one by surname only. Put it this way in last few jobs I’ve done it would be regarded as bizarre to refer to anyone by anything other than their first name (as long as context made it clear who is being referred to).

    At work if I’m referred to as Mr Daw, I know a bollocking is about to be delivered. And being referred to as Daw would suggest I’m about to be fired.

    Are mores really so different in US?

  15. #60
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    A. Work for hire, He knows the system
    B. He modified a character did not created him

    Kelly Sue/Soy/Jamie McKelvie redesign Ms Marvel into Captain Marvel, Someone turned Dick Grayson into Nightwing, Someone turned Jason Todd into Red Hood. They are redesigning preexisting characters and when you do that it take away measure of control you have over an idea. I am not going to pretend that these changes aren't Significant they are practical new characters. One of my biggest pet peeves is the tying of original concepts to existing characters the Immortal Hulk to me is not the Hulk meaning Al Ewing could have easily created new character called the Immortal who gets their power from the one below all. We could have new character called Ghost Spider with no ties to Spiderman, Instead of Hulkverine or Weapon H, we could have Clayton Cortez some with some cool name and design.But for sheer safety of better sales we have seen over and over stuff like Citizen V, Ronin, Iron Patriot, etc attached to old characters first not an original concept.

    Is Marvel being a dick in this case? No doubt but everyone knows the business, Brubaker could have easily held the idea and got an artist and put out an indie book called the Winter Soldier. And obviously it would sell less and might not even be as popular. Which bring us to the point as much he add new elements to the character, People primarily care about this character because it is Bucky and who has ties to Cap America. I think every creator who makes something for Marvel or DC knows the drill, You can make something original that 100% percent yours and maybe doesn't take off OR you can get payed well and have the power of Marvel to push your idea to masses attaching it to a preexisting concept. Brubaker has the right complain to make things better for future creators but this is the business.

    Part of it is our fault for not supporting indie stuff more giving these creators the freedom to fully profit from their ideas. But other part of is creators going to work for Marvel or DC. I mean Image exists but we can't tell creators to turn down more money and chance to work on the characters they have love all their lives BUT in long run they are hurt themselves. I can't blame them for not wanting to struggle and grow a thing but if they all said screw Marvel and DC they would be in better shape.

    Just my thoughts
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 04-18-2021 at 04:23 AM.

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