Ed Brubabker Criticizes Disney/Marvel For Lack Of Winter Soldier Royalties

[Brian B]

I’m not really going to defend Marvel or Disney on this from an ethical perspective.

They should give Brubaker a royalty, even if he isn’t legally entitled. It’s the right thing to do. He did create the Winter Soldier identity.

Jack Kirby’s estate finally got a piece of the action.

Joe Simon didn’t really get treated that well, though he did sign away rights. I think his estate should get a piece of the action, too.

Again, from my understanding Simon is not owed anything, and I’m sure Brubaker had a good idea of the score going in.

Nonetheless, the ethical obligation would be to give the Simon estate and Brubaker some money, even if they aren’t owed it legally.

[Grapeweasel]

Everyone hates Bob Kane, but he was the only one smart enough to get it in writing.

[Eto]

brubaker captain america is a flop but if they are going to adapt his material they should cut the whole creative team a check, they probably didn't even put everyone who made the books they adapted into the credits

Bruh....for real?
Really man.?!

[marvelprince]

I’m not really going to defend Marvel or Disney on this from an ethical perspective.

They should give Brubaker a royalty, even if he isn’t legally entitled. It’s the right thing to do. He did create the Winter Soldier identity.

Jack Kirby’s estate finally got a piece of the action.

Joe Simon didn’t really get treated that well, though he did sign away rights. I think his estate should get a piece of the action, too.

Again, from my understanding Simon is not owed anything, and I’m sure Brubaker had a good idea of the score going in.

Nonetheless, the ethical obligation would be to give the Simon estate and Brubaker some money, even if they aren’t owed it legally.

Yup this is how I feel. I don't think people today appreciate just how crazy it was to have Bucky back as Winter Soldier. It used to be that only Bucky and Uncle Ben stayed dead. Not only did Ed shatter that notion, he at the same time made teenage Bucky with no powers make sense as a partner to Captain America while also brought him into the modern era in such a cool and memorable way.

[inisideguy]

Ok in defense of Marvel, I am assuming they had to give Brubaker the go ahead to bring Bucky back. They owned him. In defense of Brubaker I think he deserves something as well. However one thing I have learned from this type of stuff is no one is really telling the whole story. If it wasn't for Disney/ Marvel the winter soldier would not have been as popular. They made him what he is. They took a great concept and made it make billions. How much should Brubaker get? I don't know. There is a ton of grey area. I can guarantee you that after the winter solider movie and tv show and everything brubakers winter soldier books are selling more and he is getting money from that. If Disney/ Marvel don't turn the winter soldier into a huge box office success his graphic novels don't sell as well. So he is making money off the popularity of the character. Just not as much as he thinks he should.

[Castling]

Everyone hates Bob Kane, but he was the only one smart enough to get it in writing.

The Wonder Woman creator had a deal in place, too, that ensured the character be published in perpetuity or the rights would permanently revert to the Marston family. Decades later, DC bought out that contract to wholly own the Wonder Woman character, and all related characters.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Ok in defense of Marvel, I am assuming they had to give Brubaker the go ahead to bring Bucky back.

So?

However one thing I have learned from this type of stuff is no one is really telling the whole story.

The story is simple. There are good guys and there are bad guys. If you want to tell who the good guys are and who the bad guys are? In the comics business it's as easy as the famous phrase 'follow the money'?

Brubaker does the work, Marvel keeps the money. Ergo Brubaker is the good guy, Marvel is the bad guy.

Let me amend this to say, that it's not always the case that creators are 100% good guys (Bob Kane isn't), but it's definitely the case that the company is always the bad guy.

In the comics business the bad guys win all the time. It's the most labor hostile media industry, alongside video games.

If it wasn't for Disney/ Marvel the winter soldier would not have been as popular.

It stands to reason that if Disney/Marvel were so capable they could create original stories and original characters entirely for the screen.

The fact that they adapted the comics for ideas and themes suggests otherwise.

...after the winter solider movie and tv show and everything brubakers winter soldier books are selling more and he is getting money from that.

He isn't, though. That's the point.

If Disney/ Marvel don't turn the winter soldier into a huge box office success his graphic novels don't sell as well. So he is making money off the popularity of the character. Just not as much as he thinks he should.

"not as much as he thinks he should" is a totally valid and legitimate grievance. That's how minimum wages and other stuff were raised over the decades and so on.

[Zero Hunter]

Bubaker and Epting didn't create Bucky, but they certainly created the concept of The Winter Soldier and the surrounding mythos. Let's be real: if not for Brubaker, Bucky wouldn't have made it through the first movie, if he was even included at all. They're making bank over a concept that exists due to Brubaker. Furthermore, so many themes presented in Brubaker's run feel almost foundational to the arc of MCU Cap. While I think Marvel is technically in the legal right, it's still a shitty thing to do considering how much they owe to Brubaker's run.

But that poses the question of would the whole concept of the Winter Soldier had been as big as it was if it had not been Bucky to begin with? The answer is no. Take Bucky out of the equation and the Winter Soldier is a just a left over cold war weapon with no emotional atachment to Cap. The main reason the concept took off to begin with is because it was Steve having to face off against his friend.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But that poses the question of would the whole concept of the Winter Soldier had been as big as it was if it had not been Bucky to begin with?

The thing about chicken-and-egg situations is that by their nature you can ask any number of them and any version of them.

Why ask this chicken-and-egg when we can ask so many others:
-- "Would Bucky coming-back-from-the-dead have been as impactful if it had not been for Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting?"
-- "Would Bucky's return have worked had it not been for the title of 'Winter Soldier' created by Brubaker?"
-- "Did anyone care about Bucky really, until Brubaker?"

It's a political choice to frame a chicken-and-egg question most advantageous to the narrative of the company.

The fact is that Bucky Barnes was never the most popular aspect of the classic Captain America comics and when Jack Kirby decided to bring Cap back and keep Bucky missing as a dead sidekick, that was a change few readers at the time objected to. Captain America as Avenger and solo-title did pretty well for some 40 odd years after his "thaw" so there was few to little interest in Bucky Barnes as a character.

Brubaker's run and his Winter Soldier was the first significant story Bucky Barnes was central to, and Brubaker's story radically inspired the Winter Soldier film...i.e. casting an older and taller actor as Sergeant Barnes in The First Avenger, transforming him from sidekick to Steve Rogers' cool best friend and honorary brother. The screenwriters cast Sebastian Stan with the hope that he would eventually play the Winter Soldier in the sequel. None of that happens without Brubaker and his run, being as good as it is.

[jwatson]

not going to defend anybody. at the end of the day it all comes down to what was in the contract. protect yourself because the company will always protect themselves. I don't think he can be too upset that he didn't see the value in the work he was doing and negotiate better. It happens. It's hard to monetarily value something you "create" in this case, the storyline.

[Alan2099]

But that poses the question of would the whole concept of the Winter Soldier had been as big as it was if it had not been Bucky to begin with? The answer is no. Take Bucky out of the equation and the Winter Soldier is a just a left over cold war weapon with no emotional atachment to Cap. The main reason the concept took off to begin with is because it was Steve having to face off against his friend.

On that note, would we even be having this conversation if he hadn't added the name "Winter Soldier." Imagine that the character and back story wasn't change at all from the version that did get published. The only difference is that he is still called "Bucky". Would we still be saying that he created anything? At what point does it go from creating a character to just bringing back a old guy with some new updates?

We still consider Lee and Kirby as the guy who created Groot, when modern Groot has almost nothing to do with the original version.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

On that note, would we even be having this conversation if he hadn't added the name...

Brubaker added many things more than a name as has been discussed and mentioned here countless times for your clear benefit.

[inisideguy]

not going to defend anybody. at the end of the day it all comes down to what was in the contract. protect yourself because the company will always protect themselves. I don't think he can be too upset that he didn't see the value in the work he was doing and negotiate better. It happens. It's hard to monetarily value something you "create" in this case, the storyline.

That was my point though. Brubaker brought back Bucky. Marvel said ok. Brubaker wrote some stories. Marvel took those stories and made billions or a lot of money. But Brubaker also made money because more people bought his winter soldier books than would have had Marvel not done what they did. Both sides benefited. But Brubaker thinks he should have benefited more. If Marvel never makes a winter soldier movie and uses the character in films, that would also hurt Brubakers income. I can tell you as someone who saw Winter Soldier and then went and bought the original story from amazon. I would probably never have bought those graphic novels if I didn't see the movie.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Creator greed always brings out the ugly in the industry.

[gurkle]

On that note, would we even be having this conversation if he hadn't added the name "Winter Soldier." Imagine that the character and back story wasn't change at all from the version that did get published. The only difference is that he is still called "Bucky". Would we still be saying that he created anything? At what point does it go from creating a character to just bringing back a old guy with some new updates?

I think if the MCU took a comics story and gave it to a different character, it would still be using that creator's work. The MCU adaptations are of course very different from the comics stories, but they do take advantage of the fact that they have decades' worth of story material that they can use for free.