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  1. #31
    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    I'm just here to say I'm a fan of this discussion
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  2. #32
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    What I'm saying, and what I tried to clarify in the follow-up is that, to me, based on the feats at bar, Bucky and Legolas are in the same speed tier. Yes, Legolas has his blink of an eye feat, but again, it's written from the perspective of him being both fast and nobody really focusing on him at that point.
    'Nobody really focusing on him'?

    Legolas is one of a trio of dudes in the middle of a ring of horses, everyone basically staring at those three dudes.

    This is downplaying. The feat is Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn in the middle of a ring of very hostile, very suspicious Rohirrim, and Legolas is noted as fitting an arrow to his bow (note - no arrow in-hand before now, thus he pulled it from his quiver) and drawing it 'quicker than sight'.

    And your stance is that 'nobody is actually paying a lot of attention to Legolas at that point'.

    Dude, no. That's not the situation at all. Again, you are downplaying what is happening in the situation.

    It seems you yourself say that you think that Bucky and Legolas are both some tier slower than Batman.
    You're also misrepresenting my point on the matter, hopefully accidentally.

    Here, I'll help by quoting me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    I'm not. If anything, Legolas's speed by that feat - which is the only real speedfeat we have for him, while his presentation is 'He's Sindarin elf, an old one from a good bloodline, in a world where Elves are superior in every single way to humans that are superior in every single way to modern day, normal humans...other than at dying' - would for me put him somewhere around CBPH himself for speed, given Batman has speedfeats actually BETTER than his cup switch, if one works it out.

    When I say that Legolas' feat is better than Bruce's cup switch, nowhere am I saying that Legolas is quicker than Bruce. Bruce does have better feats than the cup switch.
    Bolded for emphasis. Either you're not reading my responses at this point...or you're trying to catch me on something I didn't actually say? Between the downplaying and this, I'm starting to get a bad feeling here.

    Yet you think also that Legolas is "much faster" than Bucky. I don't get that tiering, really. To me, blocking bullets from a few feet away fired by trained soldiers, matching Cap and Panther in combat, all of the other things I've pointed out, go to show someone who is some decent fraction of CBPH. And also very, very capable of swatting arrows fired from 30 meters away out of the air, pretty contemptuously.
    So, let's say I DID actually say Legolas is below Batman (I didn't, but let's run with it for a moment).

    Batman is a guy who can catch crossbow bolts loosed at him in multiples from close range (like, a whack of them at a time, while knocking another out of the air with a Batarang, as I recall). He no-look-behind himself catches arrows from Green Arrow. He has a ton of other speedfeats, including the cup one you mention. Absolutely crazy stuff, to the point where we do say stuff like 'Bruce totally blitzes normal humans in groups', because his entire damn body would be nothing but a blur to a normal.

    There's a pretty big gulf between that and 'Bucky, whose big speed feat is aim-dodging' - even in the clearly speeded up (and decently done) portions of the fights, I can still follow what happens. Plenty of room between there to slot someone in, especially someone who would be closer to the Bruce side of things than the Bucky, and still have room left over for 'there's a pretty heftly gap' (see below). Especially since the other feats for Bucky, matching Cap and Panther? Their big speed feats are pretty much identical to Bucky's on-screen - aim-dodging. It's not like MCU Captain America or Panther move so quickly their movements are invisible either.

    Now, for me? If Legolas IS in the same ballpark as a CBPH for speed, given his feat, then sure, I'm pretty happy giving him a chunk of an advantage over Bucky.

    Nowhere have I said 'Legolas blitzes Bucky all to hell.' He has a speed advantage, and it's a worthwhile one, not a wee tiny one. If I felt it was enough to be blitz-level, I would have mentioned it.

    Meanwhile, you're saying that Bucky is on the 'same speed tier' as Legolas, when their feats are completely different. One of them never actually moves quicker than the eye. The other does.

    As for the ruling, I'm more interested in a ruling that states 'No, all aim-dodgers are not automatically as fast as people who move so quickly the standard human eye cannot follow them at all', because all aim-dodgers clearly do not. I'm less concerned about the whole business of Legolas versus Bucky in speed.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 04-17-2021 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Edit to remove some irritated comments.
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  3. #33
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    *Edited out, due to likely not helping*
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 04-17-2021 at 06:28 PM.
    Why are we here?

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  4. #34
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Having reviewed the evidence presented, I can't say that Bucky is quite as fast as Book Legolas. He's not a bullet timer, seems more like aim blocking and the people shooting him conveniently aiming for his metal arm, and he's certainly not on the level of disappearing speed. He's fast for a live action character but he's not really on that level. The Underworld Movies and Movie! Wesker are good examples of what I'm talking about. Those movies had characters doing speedster feats. The First Underworld Movie had Super Michael flash stepping around his enemy. Wesker was flat out bullet timing, blitzing and disappearing around his enemies.

    Those are the kind of moves you need to be considered disappearing level speed. I haven't seen anything from MCU Bucky to say that he can ninja blitz like Book Legolas can either.

    Thus, going by presented evidence, MCU Bucky is not on the same speed level as Legolas or Comic Book CMPH's.
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  5. #35
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    To put it into a more general, Rumbles-based perspective, this is why we don't have 'tiers', except as shorthand. Why we don't use 'Arrow-timer' as an actual speed (because there's a pretty wide assortments of different levels of 'dealing with arrows'). That we only use 'bullet-timer' for shorthand, and don't assume that all bullet-timers are created equal, instead inspecting the feats the moment we have two people close enough that we can't use that shorthand anymore...because there's a pretty big gulf in speed between Ozymandius and Cassandra Cain.

    This is why Rumbles depends on feats, not some 'tier system'.

    'Aim-dodging' covers some ground. And it is not, in fact, indicative of anything other than 'sufficient speed and skill to carry out aim-dodging'. It's not some tier where 'Batman is an Aim-Dodger, Silver Sable is an Aim-Dodger, ergo their speed is at least comparable and Sable should be able to do what Bruce does'. Nope. Sable aim-dodges, sure. So does Bruce. But Bruce does a whole lot of other stuff that Sable cannot do.
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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
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  6. #36
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post
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    Having reviewed the evidence presented, I can't say that Bucky is quite as fast as Book Legolas. He's not a bullet timer, seems more like aim blocking and the people shooting him conveniently aiming for his metal arm, and he's certainly not on the level of disappearing speed. He's fast for a live action character but he's not really on that level. The Underworld Movies and Movie! Wesker are good examples of what I'm talking about. Those movies had characters doing speedster feats. The First Underworld Movie had Super Michael flash stepping around his enemy. Wesker was flat out bullet timing, blitzing and disappearing around his enemies.

    Those are the kind of moves you need to be considered disappearing level speed. I haven't seen anything from MCU Bucky to say that he can ninja blitz like Book Legolas can either.

    Thus, going by presented evidence, MCU Bucky is not on the same speed level as Legolas or Comic Book CMPH's.
    Just with regards to this, I'm not claiming that Book-Legolas bounces around disappearing and appearing. He's not that fast (which I don't think is what Guy1 is saying here, but clarity is good!). ^_^

    He just stands in the middle of a ring of angry, suspicious warriors, pulls out an arrow, fits it to his bow, and draws the bow faster than the eye can see.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

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