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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    I've written my own version of it for fun and I think there's a lot that can be done with both Death and Reign if given all the toys in the chest to play with, but I'm not sure DC needs to focus on their other "we don't know what to do with Superman" trump card, killing him.

    We need to tell other stories with the guy, and I'm not a fan of rehashing old stories just to update them. Hell, that's kind of disrespectful to the creators of the original work.
    Last edited by Robanker; 04-16-2021 at 10:11 PM.

  2. #17
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    I totally agree that rewriting this is disrespectful to the original creators.

    The cyborg being so bad, out of nowhere, and on a weekly schedule blew my mind back then.

    If you like it or don't like it, it's there, in the past, you can revisit it or ignore it, up to you.
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  3. #18
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    It's the story of the 90s in many senses of the phrase. Which means it's diminished outside of that context even by just a little. The adaptations are so on the surface that it's no wonder people don't care much... unfortunately, that also means that people who don't care are even less interested in an extended cut full of obscure or dated references.

    Superman is easily the king of the comic backlog, but love for classic comics is a curse really. Outside of the X-Men fans who very largely understand that you can't pass go without 80s Claremont, people just don't get pre 2000 comics like that. Mutant Massacre reprints are going for triple the price two years after the omnibus release, Superman comics don't see that even when DC bothers to reprint. Bates for one wrote at least as many stories for this franchise, but what can you say?

    For the Death and Return story, I guess it has to be enough that everyone knows it has its place in the mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    large portions of Morrison's career are them looking at older stories and digging back into those ideas
    Well, with Death in particular this is exactly how I'd describe Batman RIP. Or Death of Captain America by Brubaker, Wolverine by committee, etc. It's hilarious to me how blatant those riffs are but I have to say a contemporary story involving a more "current" character is better than redoing an old story with a character struggling hold a modern fanbase.
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  4. #19
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    Yeah, okay. But with a caveat. Modern writing in it's desire for drama without consequence has really robbed the genre of the concept and impact of what death really is (yet another issue with this genre) that I'd say better to remove the idea that he ever actually died in the first place. As far as the general world knows Superman died in the fight with Doomsday but in secret he survived but in a heavily broken down state. Can't really be Superman or Clark Kent in the traditional sense and is more of a Jor-El man of science trying to save the world while barely being able to walk much. Confined largely to the FOS basically having to "work" from home, using the Superbots like an army of Pikmin, using his brain to solve the theats that face the world. Somehow hitting all of the same general story beats as Death/Return but without the nobody characters no one really remembers anymore. Could be cool.
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  5. #20
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Yeah, okay. But with a caveat. Modern writing in it's desire for drama without consequence has really robbed the genre of the concept and impact of what death really is (yet another issue with this genre) that I'd say better to remove the idea that he ever actually died in the first place. As far as the general world knows Superman died in the fight with Doomsday but in secret he survived but in a heavily broken down state. Can't really be Superman or Clark Kent in the traditional sense and is more of a Jor-El man of science trying to save the world while barely being able to walk much. Confined largely to the FOS basically having to "work" from home, using the Superbots like an army of Pikmin, using his brain to solve the theats that face the world. Somehow hitting all of the same general story beats as Death/Return but without the nobody characters no one really remembers anymore. Could be cool.

    I like your story idea,but how would you use the 4 Supermen that were and still are very important to the super verse?
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  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Yeah, okay. But with a caveat. Modern writing in it's desire for drama without consequence has really robbed the genre of the concept and impact of what death really is (yet another issue with this genre) that I'd say better to remove the idea that he ever actually died in the first place. As far as the general world knows Superman died in the fight with Doomsday but in secret he survived but in a heavily broken down state. Can't really be Superman or Clark Kent in the traditional sense and is more of a Jor-El man of science trying to save the world while barely being able to walk much. Confined largely to the FOS basically having to "work" from home, using the Superbots like an army of Pikmin, using his brain to solve the theats that face the world. Somehow hitting all of the same general story beats as Death/Return but without the nobody characters no one really remembers anymore. Could be cool.
    That's very similar to Steve Orlando's new book Project Patron.

    The only way I could see a retelling of this work is in a reboot or ultimate situation. I think there is value in retelling stories for a modern audience with current storytelling and art. That is a significant barrier to a lot of people beyond the diehard fanbase that has read everything regardless. The Death and Return animated movie was great though and probably serves that goal for a bit.

  7. #22
    Spectacular Member StrikeJP's Avatar
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    Hoo-boy. I knew this topic would be unpopular. There's a lot to tackle here (and defend myself, lol) so if I don't get to everyone's point, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Gotta disagree, personally. I think the mythos would be better served moving on from it more than DC has ever allowed it to, honestly. Its not so much about me feeling its a classic that shouldn't be touched, its just more I think it needs to be less a point of emphasis in his history. Hell I think the character would be just fine if not benefit if it were removed wholesale from ever happening. It was a huge deal to the industry at the time via some lightning in a bottle circumstances, but that was a long time ago and it really doesn't resonate as much anymore. The animated take recently was decent but not spectacular, and it finally making it to film after all these decades landed with a huge thud. The novelty has passed, imo.
    I'm totally ok with DC not focusing on this story anymore, I get where you're coming from. But I wouldn't use Batman V. Superman as a good example of the story being done right. I just feel like this story introduces a lot of important character/concepts that are too important for the story to be removed wholesale. Which brings me to this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I'll be honest, it wouldn't break my heart if they just got rid of it altogether. It's not really that important in terms of his history. It's not necessary to get either Conner or Steel. Both work fine without it. The books themselves are incredibly dated and most of it isn't canon anymore anyway. He's had how many origin reboots now but this outdated story gets to stay? If I was doing my collection over again, I'd probably just skip it. Doomsday's also kind of a one trick pony. He can't really be used for anything else other than "the monster that killed Superman". I'd rather just get rid of it. I don't consider it one of the "big moments" in Superman's life. The fact that it caught on was just a fluke. I loved Batman Year One way more and if that doesn't get to stay because it's outdated, there's no reason this continuity heavy story that really doesn't contribute anything to his canon that can't be obtained otherwise should get to stay.
    Sure, Conner and Steel can be introduced in other ways. But I find their introductions way more interesting when tied to the Death. Conner was created to fill the void that Superman left. Steel was inspired and felt like he had to make up for the loss of Superman somehow. Otherwise, without the death Steel just becomes some random guy who becomes a superhero because he likes Superman a lot.

    I won't disagree with Doomsday being a one-trick pony, but I have a soft spot for the big lug as long as he's used sparingly. Probably my nostalgia speaking. And while were on it, you won't get a disagreement about Batman Year One from me, I love that story. And I don't think it's even that outdated, I think it holds up because it's not bogged down by continuity and it very self-contained. That's what I want for the Death & Return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Unfortunately the ship for a straight up retelling sailed maybe two times already back-to-back. That was the New 52 and Earth One universes.

    I don't really see much merit in just doing a self contained Death of Superman story to just...be. All Star Superman did that, and it has the final word on the idea.
    ________

    That said, I think there's a lot of room to retroactively make that story better in the present. That's the power of recontextualization. Moore's Marvelman, and large portions of Morrison's career are them looking at older stories and digging back into those ideas with a clever modern eye to uncover a new dimension to the work that better informs the present. I don't need to see Death of Superman retold. But I would like to see it reunderstood, and, for me at least, made to not suck.
    I don't know that there was ever a ship. I think if I brought this topic up during the New52 it would be met with the same reluctance. That being said, I'd be curious to hear your take on how you'd recontextualize the Death & Return in a way that would make it interesting for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperX View Post
    How old are you guys that dont care for this story anyway?

    I actually was there and at a age where I could totally understand and enjoy this story.

    This was the biggest thing that has ever happened in comics, nothing else was close, in comics and absolutely no where close outside of comics.this was the pinnacle of the comic industries,the only thing bigger than this for the comic industry was the movie explosion for marvel and dc, but still not big inside comics
    Yep, there was nothing bigger than this story. Especially if you were around an age where you could appreciate it. That's why I think it's a shame a lot of people would rather throw this story out than improve on it. For better or for worse, this story was/is important to Superman.

    I've seen a few comments in this thread that dumb it down to "I don't want to see Superman and Doomsday beat each other to death again." But the story is so much more than that. The Doomsday fight is a means to an end. Funeral for a Friend is very touching and can show the importance of Superman. The Reign of the Superman was a fun over the top superhero blockbuster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    We need to tell other stories with the guy, and I'm not a fan of rehashing old stories just to update them. Hell, that's kind of disrespectful to the creators of the original work.
    That's fair. But no disrespect meant to the creators. I love their work so much, that I think putting this story through a modern lens, could be intriguing if told right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I think there is value in retelling stories for a modern audience with current storytelling and art. That is a significant barrier to a lot of people beyond the diehard fanbase that has read everything regardless. The Death and Return animated movie was great though and probably serves that goal for a bit.
    This is where I'm coming from. But I also see where a lot of you guys are coming from, so maybe at the end of the day, I'd like a story that retells the Death & Return through flashbacks and 3rd person narration. Something like "Day of Doom" meets "For All Seasons" but way more fleshed out in a way that helps modernize and self-contain the story.
    Last edited by StrikeJP; 04-17-2021 at 06:57 AM.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    The only way to do this without outright saying it's a rehash is for it to take place in an adaption, its own pocket continuity (like Earth One Superman), or as a black label project chronicling his life in which it'd obviously be a sequence (which is the approach I personally took for fun).

    But you can't redo it mainline without coming across as "well we shit the bed last time, but we know it'll rule this time!"

    Just look at the DTVs Superman: Doomsday and Death of Superman. Most agree Doomsday was subpar, but it was the first one out the gate so it sold gangbusters. Most tend to agree DoS is significantly better and it overwrites that one in most people's mind. But if they were to redo Under the Red Hood? People would be outraged because it's good!

    Redoing a project of that scale is an admission that the old one isn't good enough, and those creators are still around. They probably wouldn't care if they got more than a special thanks whenever their work got adapted but to never make money off things like Doomsday/DoS/BvS and then have their work redone is a bridge too far if I'm being honest.

  9. #24
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    I felt that the story has been told in many media in many form so it's getting repetitive,
    what would be interesting is if Superman didn't return to DC Universe and everything continued from Death of Superman,
    just this time Superman didn't return, who would step up to be the new Superman, who would stop Mongul and Cyborg Superman,
    that'd be some story.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Does anyone even know what stories "count" anymore and which ones don't? What's his current origin? It's been five years since Rebirth and we still don't even know what his history is.
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  11. #26
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Does anyone even know what stories "count" anymore and which ones don't? What's his current origin? It's been five years since Rebirth and we still don't even know what his history is.
    They all count in the sense that creators are now free to use the entirety of the DCU as a springboard for new stories.

    If you want a clearer idea of what Superman's backstory is, it's the same one he's always had. Some details change every few years, but the broad strokes remain the same.

    Currently, the only big change that's been made is the Kents are alive again. Everything else is the same. The overall arc of Superman's life is the same as it has always been.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Does anyone even know what stories "count" anymore and which ones don't? What's his current origin? It's been five years since Rebirth and we still don't even know what his history is.
    I love how DC has put out around 7 origins and because of all the bullshit they’ve done, none of them are canon. I guess Jurgens broad strokes origin in Action Rebirth is still the basis so Secret Origin minus the Legion, a mix of Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, and a little bit of New 52. Rebirth is still completely canon.
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  13. #28
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I'd only be interested in this if Neil Gaiman was going to write it, like he apparently was initially going to.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'd only be interested in this if Neil Gaiman was going to write it, like he apparently was initially going to.
    I remember reading a website that catalogued all these comics that never came to be, seeing that peak 90s Gaiman was going to write a take on Superman’s death, and being crushed that it never happened.
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  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Max Landis apparently had a pitch that was basically that, that from what I recall he originally planned to pitch with Greg Pak.

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