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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Raimi Peter and MJ were definitely friends in SM1. Maybe not the closest of friends, but that's the only version other than Ultimate where there was history between them before they dated (not counting Shailene Woodley's erased MJ from The Amazing films).

    I don't get the choice for MCU MJ's portrayal. She was acting so deliberately non-MJ that I (and many) first theorised it was a ruse because she was a famous Hannah Montana-esque pop star or supermodel and didn't want people to catch on about her secret identity similar to Peter/Spidey's behavior. I still like that theory so much more than what we got.

    This video tries to make a case for the MCU's decision with MJ to middling success, I feel.

    Here is what I do not like about Zendaya as MJ. 1: She really is not MJ. If you want someone of color to play Peter’s love interest, there are other fictional options to choose from ( like Glory, Michelle or although I hate to admit it Cindy). I would note my favorite movie Peter love interest was actually a woman of color voicing MJ: Zoe Kravitz in Into The Spider Verse. She got the MJ of the comics down perfectly. 2: I thought naming her MJ was actually a tease ( sort of like Slott’s Jackpot) and unnecessary. 3: The MJ from 616 and most other comics has bite. Something Zendaya ( and for that matter Dunst) lack. I like my MJ standing up to Osborn or taking a bat to Smythe, not a sweetie pie.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post

    This video tries to make a case for the MCU's decision with MJ to middling success, I feel.


    A broken clock is right twice a day.

    This video also isn't entirely accurate in terms of how Mary Jane was presented initially. MJ wasn't designed to be odd or culturally subversive. She wasn't a hippie. She was physically designed to resemble a pop culture icon, and was written to be "hip and happening" (well at least as "hip and happening" as a middle-aged Stan Lee could write.) She was also designed to be a foil for the "nice girl", which in classical Betty and Veronica fashion meant that she could also be a bit more bitchy and flirtatious. It was happenstance that Mary Jane came to represent elements of the sexual revolution (at least more so than the female lead), but I honestly don't think that our society has evolved all that much that you couldn't subvert the old Betty and Veronica stereotype the same way that Conway did in the 70s when he showed that there was more to MJ than meets the eye. It's just that this portrayal of the character wouldn't really work for a Disney Marvel tween movie.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 04-19-2021 at 12:43 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Romances can work IF the actors and ( or) actresses are good enough to make you think of the character not the person playing them. Take Errol Flynn. In real life, he was a drunk and was into teenaged girls ( that alone makes you think creep), but when you see a movie of his you think tough guy and charmer not creep. Vincent Price and Boris Karloff were the opposite. Very sophisticated gentleman in real life ( art collectors etc), but when you see them on screen, you think monsters. By comparison Rock Hudson did a movie called Come September, with Gina Lollobrigida. I happen to like women with figures like Gina, Sophia Loren, Elsa Martinelli, Marilyn Monroe and Salma Hayak, and I saw a gay man doing a fake romantic scene with an actress I like, not the character, so I did not believe it for one second. Why? Hudson does not have the talent of Flynn, Price or Karloff that allows you to suspend belief for a couple of hours.
    Oh, I was mostly talking about superhero romances. Although I don't care for movie romances in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    A broken clock is right twice a day.

    This video also isn't entirely accurate in terms of how Mary Jane was presented initially. MJ wasn't designed to be odd or culturally subversive. She wasn't a hippie. She was physically designed to resemble a pop culture icon, and was written to be "hip and happening" (well at least as "hip and happening" as a middle-aged Stan Lee could write.) She was also designed to be a foil for the "nice girl", which in classical Betty and Veronica fashion meant that she could also be a bit more bitchy and flirtatious. It was happenstance that Mary Jane came to represent elements of the sexual revolution (at least more so than the female lead), but I honestly don't think that our society has evolved all that much that you couldn't subvert the old Betty and Veronica stereotype the same way that Conway did in the 70s when he showed that there was more to MJ than meets the eye. It's just that this portrayal of the character wouldn't really work for a Disney Marvel tween movie.
    Idk if the old Mary Jane Watson idea even works anymore

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The romance was awful, but a number of many people seemed to have liked it (up until Gwen dies) because Garfield and Stone looked good making goo goo eyes at each other. The stalking, and trying to play it off as cute, really did paint a really toxic relationship.
    This.

    Between the stalking (after being told by the dad not to date Gwen but still doing so)and her ending up dead was just horrible all round.
    Black Lives Matter.

  5. #50
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    I forgot about the whole dad controlling their daughter business. I hate that cliche

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Oh, I was mostly talking about superhero romances. Although I don't care for movie romances in general.



    Idk if the old Mary Jane Watson idea even works anymore
    I certainly do not care for most romances ( especially chick flicks which after musicals are my least favorite genre). I do think they can work within the context of a movie, and that includes certain superhero romances work ( Ant Man and The Wasp for example).

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I like him having someone he can talk to. Him not sharing his identity with at least someone isn't something I care for in earlier incarnations. So I'm glad his close friends and family know
    I prefer Peter being kind of isolated and alone as far as keeping his secret identity to himself, at least up to a certain point. I don't think he should have a Ganke-type like he does in the MCU.

    Of course they could've gone the Ultimate route where MJ learns early on and is his confidante, but that was also fraught with a lot of stress and trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk if the old Mary Jane Watson idea even works anymore
    I don't think she's that hard to modernize.
    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I certainly do not care for most romances ( especially chick flicks which after musicals are my least favorite genre). I do think they can work within the context of a movie, and that includes certain superhero romances work ( Ant Man and The Wasp for example).
    See, I really wanted to buy into the romance with Ant-Man and Wasp but it felt like they spent the bare minimum developing it despite it being central to the leads' partnership.

    I felt more invested in Hank and Janet's relationship than I did Scott and Hope.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk if the old Mary Jane Watson idea even works anymore
    I think the basic idea of Aunt May wants Peter to go out with this girl and Peter reluctantly does so is still a solid foundation. Shame we've never gotten that in a movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    See, I really wanted to buy into the romance with Ant-Man and Wasp but it felt like they spent the bare minimum developing it despite it being central to the leads' partnership.

    I felt more invested in Hank and Janet's relationship than I did Scott and Hope.
    Honestly? Same.
    Last edited by Kevinroc; 04-19-2021 at 03:24 PM.

  9. #54
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    By Mary Jane i mean the stereotypical attractive woman dates the nerdy guy. It doesn't work anymkre

    Ant Man and Wasp was a weak romance. He bailed on her, she lost everything, and they never seemed like they like each other. It was another obligatory White romance. It's not even canon

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    By Mary Jane i mean the stereotypical attractive woman dates the nerdy guy. It doesn't work anymkre
    I think that completely misunderstands their relationship.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    He didn't tell Raimi MJ. She just saw him unmasked. But they at least knew each other by the time we meet them in Spider-Man 1. MJ even went to visit Aunt May while she was in the hospital. While "friends" may have been a bit much in describing their relationship in Spidey 1, they were at least "friendly" toward each other.

    MCU MJ is another story. She's outright tsundere toward Peter. I think they wanted to "surprise" the audience that Zendaya was MJ, so they had her acting distinctly un-MJ. (I don't really like the way the MCU handles Spidey and his supporting cast but that's a whole other discussion.)
    I'll admit I forgot about Raimi MJ not being an instant romance + reveal like the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    By Mary Jane i mean the stereotypical attractive woman dates the nerdy guy. It doesn't work anymkre
    Peter is an stereotypical attractive guy for a majority of his existence though. In fact more modern interpretations had to amp up his nerdiness due to him being too "normal".
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 04-19-2021 at 04:12 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    By Mary Jane i mean the stereotypical attractive woman dates the nerdy guy. It doesn't work anymkre

    Ant Man and Wasp was a weak romance. He bailed on her, she lost everything, and they never seemed like they like each other. It was another obligatory White romance. It's not even canon
    I disagree. The average guy can still get the hot woman, but it requires character growth. Take Here Comes The Boom. Fat out of shape Kevin James ends up with Salma Hayak at the end. How does he do it? physical and mental growth. The mental part is not stressed ( like the physical doing MMA) but it is certainly there. “There is one scene where he asks her “How come you never went out with me.” She said “You never asked me standing up.” He needed to gain the self confidence necessary to finally win her as a girlfriend. The problem with too many stories these days is the writer forgets about character growth and “Dumbs down” characters. Think Dan Slott and Peter.,

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    By Mary Jane i mean the stereotypical attractive woman dates the nerdy guy. It doesn't work anymkre
    Well...that doesn't describe Mary Jane or Peter Parker in any media I've ever seen.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Ant Man and Wasp was a weak romance. He bailed on her, she lost everything, and they never seemed like they like each other. It was another obligatory White romance. It's not even canon
    Well, canon in the confines of the MCU.

  15. #60
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    Maybe I'm being too hard on Peter and Mary jane, but that's what I've always gotten from this relationship. He's never shown as actually plain looking because comics for some reason don't allow normal looking characters. I don't care for the nerdy guy gets the hot girl trope because it always seems to be based on cliches

    As for Scott and Hope, I know it's canon in MCU, but it bothers me how that relationship got less flack than Peter and MJ

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