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  1. #76
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    This video also isn't entirely accurate in terms of how Mary Jane was presented initially. MJ wasn't designed to be odd or culturally subversive. She wasn't a hippie. She was physically designed to resemble a pop culture icon, and was written to be "hip and happening" (well at least as "hip and happening" as a middle-aged Stan Lee could write.) She was also designed to be a foil for the "nice girl", which in classical Betty and Veronica fashion meant that she could also be a bit more bitchy and flirtatious. It was happenstance that Mary Jane came to represent elements of the sexual revolution (at least more so than the female lead), but I honestly don't think that our society has evolved all that muchthat you couldn't subvert the old Betty and Veronica stereotype the same way that Conway did in the 70s when he showed that there was more to MJ than meets the eye. It's just that this portrayal of the character wouldn't really work for a Disney Marvel tween movie.
    I think it was a case of middle-aged Stan thinking the Sexual Revolution was just a passing fad (the 20's and 30's were pretty wild too, before the Great Depression hit) and that MJ was just a curiosity who would quickly become obsolete and Peter would go back to the traditionally acceptable Gwen Stacy. For all his claims in later years, he didn't seriously consider MJ to be a long time love interest for Peter in the 60's. Her immense popularity was the only reason he kept her around, by making her date Harry, and even then he started using her sporadically. It was when an actual teen Gerry Conway took writing duties and had no idea why Stan insisted on boring old Gwen being the female lead when MJ was right there that things started looking up for Mary Jane.

    but I honestly don't think that our society has evolved all that muchthat you couldn't subvert the old Betty and Veronica stereotype the same way that Conway did in the 70s when he showed that there was more to MJ than meets the eye.
    The Riverdale show did JUST THAT just a couple of years ago with cementing Veronica as endgame for Archie (that's an actual line from the show) and they even recreated the ASM #122 epilogue with Archie and Veronica (not surprising since the head writer of the Archie-verse shows is Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa who is a big MJ fan and wrote a pretty good MJ story during the Back in Black era). Betty too got a "Dark Betty" persona revealing there wasn't all that met the eye when it came to the girl next door.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    As for Scott and Hope, I know it's canon in MCU, but it bothers me how that relationship got less flack than Peter and MJ
    TBF that's only because double the number of people watch the Spider-Man films as those who watch Ant-Man films. MCU Peter/MJ are also incredibly popular among the Twitter crowd so it goes both ways.

  2. #77
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I think you have it the other way around. Gwen gets a lot of flack because she's not MJ.

    The fact that you bring up something that happened when she was still grieving her father's death only highlights it.
    I'm not giving her flack for her actions in that era. I'm merely pointing out that she, like the other characters, was a broken messed up person who hurt the people she loved. The current Kindred arc in Spencer's run is all about that with regards to Peter and Harry. The issue is that Gwen is not remembered for that, but for being "too good for this sinful Earth". It's about 10 years later and people are STILL tweeting about Emma Stone's SNL monologue where she called Mary Jane a *****.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    TBF that's only because double the number of people watch the Spider-Man films as those who watch Ant-Man films. MCU Peter/MJ are also incredibly popular among the Twitter crowd so it goes both ways.
    I can see that. My main irritation is how people attacked Peter/MJ for ruining Spider-Man just because she's mixed race and not a flashy supermodel type, yet Scott/Hope is somehow ok despite being not from the comics at all (with Hope aged up considerably), a poor replacement for Hank and Jan, and without any chemistry or believability as a couple. But they're both White, so that's ok, I guess.

    But as you said, it goes both ways. Really, in the MCU Peter's and Hope's ages should be flipped

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    How did the writers vilify her for being attractive? Every Marvel character is basically attractive.
    Because they claimed it was all she was good for her and that it made her shallow or made Peter's life "easier" somehow.
    If he's longing for companionship, Marvel shouldn't have destroyed his marriage to her
    Well, it wasn't really up to him...

  5. #80
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    Even Gwen was supposed to be attractive, she wasn't called "Gorgeous Gwendolyn" for nothing. The only time classic Gwen looked "homely" was in the Spectacular animated series, and just like Peter, she was someone who was mousy and awkward and grew into her looks.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Even Gwen was supposed to be attractive, she wasn't called "Gorgeous Gwendolyn" for nothing. The only time classic Gwen looked "homely" was in the Spectacular animated series, and just like Peter, she was someone who was mousy and awkward and grew into her looks.
    And then she got a makeover to be as attractive as comic Gwen in season 2.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Because they claimed it was all she was good for her and that it made her shallow or made Peter's life "easier" somehow.

    Well, it wasn't really up to him...
    I realize it wasn't up to him, but IMO it would be better if they kept his permanent relationship instead of have him wander from girlfriend to girlfriend

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I'm not giving her flack for her actions in that era. I'm merely pointing out that she, like the other characters, was a broken messed up person who hurt the people she loved.
    Gwen being a "broken messed up person who hurt the people she loved isn't accurate either". The worst thing she did to Peter was supporting Sam Bullit, a guy she had no ideas was a white supremacist and even that was only because she was traumatized by her father's death and didn't even know Peter was Spider-Man. The Black Cat has gotten less flack for having screwed Peter over for far less justifiable reasons.

    It's about 10 years later and people are STILL tweeting about Emma Stone's SNL monologue where she called Mary Jane a *****.
    The only person tweeting about is Dan Slott who is clearly trying to rile people up. Frankly, I have no idea why anyone keeps giving him attention.

    Look the MJ fans won. Peter and Gwen are never getting back together and MJ has been cemented as the Spider-Man love interest. That is clearly not going to change. So all this whining about some stupid joke Emma Stone said in a scripted appearance on SNL years ago just comes across is just petty insecurity. Gwen was a punching bag for far longer than 10 years and her fans endured it far better.

  9. #84
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Gwen being a "broken messed up person who hurt the people she loved isn't accurate either". The worst thing she did to Peter was supporting Sam Bullit, a guy she had no ideas was a white supremacist and even that was only because she was traumatized by her father's death and didn't even know Peter was Spider-Man. The Black Cat has gotten less flack for having screwed Peter over for far less justifiable reasons.
    I have literally said all the characters were broken and messed up people who hurt those they loved. This applies to Peter, this applies to Harry, this applies to MJ, and this applies to Gwen.

    The only person tweeting about is Dan Slott who is clearly trying to rile people up. Frankly, I have no idea why anyone keeps giving him attention.

    Look the MJ fans won. Peter and Gwen are never getting back together and MJ has been cemented as the Spider-Man love interest. That is clearly not going to change. So all this whining about some stupid joke Emma Stone said in a scripted appearance on SNL years ago just comes across is just petty insecurity. Gwen was a punching bag for far longer than 10 years and her fans endured it far better.
    One More Day (and One Moment in Time) left a hell of a scar.

    (Why does this post act like Spider-Gwen doesn't exist?)

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I have literally said all the characters were broken and messed up people who hurt those they loved. This applies to Peter, this applies to Harry, this applies to MJ, and this applies to Gwen.
    And I still say this doesn't apply to Gwen for the reasons I laid out.




    (Why does this post act like Spider-Gwen doesn't exist?)
    What does Spider-Gwen have to do with anything? She isn't being paired with Peter and is more known as a Miles Morales love interest anyway.

  11. #86

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    I thought it was a good primer on his era.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And I still say this doesn't apply to Gwen for the reasons I laid out.
    I am not attacking Gwen or saying she was intended to be a white supremacist or anything like that. I merely point out that she was just as capable of hurting the people she loved as any of the other characters. No need to rush to defend Gwen. That she was not the "too good for this sinful Earth" type that the Garfield films said is not an attack on her.

    What does Spider-Gwen have to do with anything? She isn't being paired with Peter and is more known as a Miles Morales love interest anyway.
    People treat Spider-Gwen as the third most important Spider-Hero. They want her in Insomniac's Spider-Man video game series. They want her everywhere Spidey stuff is released.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I am not attacking Gwen or saying she was intended to be a white supremacist or anything like that. I merely point out that she was just as capable of hurting the people she loved as any of the other characters. No need to rush to defend Gwen. That she was not the "too good for this sinful Earth" type that the Garfield films said is not an attack on her.



    People treat Spider-Gwen as the third most important Spider-Hero. They want her in Insomniac's Spider-Man video game series. They want her everywhere Spidey stuff is released.
    People wanting a character they like to get more exposure. The horror.

    And frankly, I'm not sure who other than Spider-Gwen would be considered the third most important Spider hero given none of the others have been as successful as her in the modern era.

  14. #89
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People wanting a character they like to get more exposure. The horror.
    I didn't say it was horrible. *Shrug*

    Just pointing out that the character hasn't been forgotten in the slightest. She'll end up with her own movie at some point in the future. We're probably not going to get a "The Amazing Mary Jane" movie.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    So all this whining about some stupid joke Emma Stone said in a scripted appearance on SNL years ago just comes across is just petty insecurity. Gwen was a punching bag for far longer than 10 years and her fans endured it far better.
    Oh lord, please stop with these absolutes. If you're talking about Gwen being a punching bag by being thrown off a bridge...yeah people sent Conway death threats when he did that.

    Anyway, these MJ and Gwen discussions seem to be mighty off-topic. This thread is about Andrew Garfield's performance as Spider-man.

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