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  1. #16
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Personally, i have always loved the social commentary in xmen. Sometimes, it can be a bit pretentious. Looking at older stuff, i see a lot of tropes and stereotypes being used in an attempt to make the characters more diverse. I try and keep things in context. Most of all these books were written by white males and the vast majority i feel like are making the attempt. Its easy to look back and point fingers that they did not do enough research or talk with said minorities on their approach but overall i just see it for what it is. An attempt being made. Personally, i think today’s woke politics can be annoying and just downright arrogant. The same way i do with extreme right wing views. People feel threatened of certain things and they make a big deal about it but at the end of the day the world still turns. I think the comics have gotten a lot better in being inclusive but i also feel there is a lot of work that still needs to be done to address certain issues. Giving minority characters a voice and drawing them appropriately would be my biggest gripe as sometimes some characters feel like tokens to just get that inclusive feel and the character does not really add anything significant. I dunno i guess i have a more moderate view.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    Personally, i have always loved the social commentary in xmen. Sometimes, it can be a bit pretentious. Looking at older stuff, i see a lot of tropes and stereotypes being used in an attempt to make the characters more diverse. I try and keep things in context. Most of all these books were written by white males and the vast majority i feel like are making the attempt. Its easy to look back and point fingers that they did not do enough research or talk with said minorities on their approach but overall i just see it for what it is. An attempt being made. Personally, i think today’s woke politics can be annoying and just downright arrogant. The same way i do with extreme right wing views. People feel threatened of certain things and they make a big deal about it but at the end of the day the world still turns. I think the comics have gotten a lot better in being inclusive but i also feel there is a lot of work that still needs to be done to address certain issues. Giving minority characters a voice and drawing them appropriately would be my biggest gripe as sometimes some characters feel like tokens to just get that inclusive feel and the character does not really add anything significant. I dunno i guess i have a more moderate view.
    This is a very good approach and I couldn't agree more. I don't necessarily think it's as important one way or the other, but I understand it matters to people and respect their perspective on this. For me, the story and characters will always be of upmost importance.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member ermac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    People feel threatened of certain things and they make a big deal about it but at the end of the day the world still turns.
    Wow. That phrase hit me. It seems the wise way to protect one's sanity tbh...

  4. #19
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    This is a very good approach and I couldn't agree more. I don't necessarily think it's as important one way or the other, but I understand it matters to people and respect their perspective on this. For me, the story and characters will always be of upmost importance.
    I always feel its healthy to take a step back when judging people’s views of how the world should be. Most of the times, it comes from a good place. The sad thing is, we live in a society. Society has a way of taking our views to the extreme and it becomes us vs them. It is almost impossible not to feel like this at times especially now that we have social media and all these echo chambers where opinions and beliefs get bellowed to the point where they just become battlecries or hashtags or memes. I feel that the majority of people do not give in to these things but they are just drowned out by people who frankly have way to much time on their hands. They feel that flaming and trolling somehow equates to activism. Then there are lines being blurred on issues like politics and race and you have certain people who make a full time job in making these things be the forefront of every conversation. While these are definitely topics that will define our generation and those to come, you have to stop and ask yourself if some of these people are even in these debates to make the world a better place or are they just doing it because they like to see people get riled up? I think that is why most people choose to lurk instead of say anything because the goal posts are constantly being moved to fit certain agendas. You can even have certain groups who do a lot of good but just get so popular that they attract all kinds of people who do not really know what they are saying when they go to stir the pot.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    I always feel its healthy to take a step back when judging people’s views of how the world should be. Most of the times, it comes from a good place. The sad thing is, we live in a society. Society has a way of taking our views to the extreme and it becomes us vs them.
    For ages, there's been a sort of marketization of tribalism, in, say, sports. It was part of being a Giants fan to trash Patriots fans, and vice versa, for instance, and yet this *usually* didn't seem that venomous, in my recollection.

    In the last few decades tho, it's seemed more entrenched and widespread.

    To be a fan of X, you have to HATE Y. Team Shirtless Werewolf hates Team Sparkly Vampire. Team Iron Man hates Team Captain America. Team X-Men fans hates team Avengers fans. Team Snyderverse hates Team MCU. It seemed like the marketing folk have mistaken the passion that comes from whipped up 'fans' hating on 'the other side' for a lasting love of their character that's going to earn then a loyal lasting customer, and not someone just whipped into a passing faddish frenzy and as likely to wander off to the next ginned-up controversy that inflames their passions, than remain 'Team Edward' or 'Team Iron Man' fans for life. (Or, worse, turn on them in outrage when they begin to write a storyline that makes their chosen side look bad, or lose to the other side.)

    It seems short-sighted, to me. I can totally get why I would want to do something like that for the Twilight movies. Three movies and we're done. Ooh, Team Werewolf is gonna be pissed that we built up a 'rivalry' and had the Vampire planned to 'win' in the end and were just stringing the suckers along, but who cares, we got their money, and we're not making a franchise for the ages here.

    But for something like Marvel vs. DC, or even factions within a single company, like X-Men vs. Avengers? These are IPs that are meant to be making money *for decades*, and it doesn't seem like a good long-term marketing strategy to be dividing the fanbase into screaming camps who can't enjoy the shared property together and build the fanbase.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    For ages, there's been a sort of marketization of tribalism, in, say, sports. It was part of being a Giants fan to trash Patriots fans, and vice versa, for instance, and yet this *usually* didn't seem that venomous, in my recollection.

    In the last few decades tho, it's seemed more entrenched and widespread.

    To be a fan of X, you have to HATE Y. Team Shirtless Werewolf hates Team Sparkly Vampire. Team Iron Man hates Team Captain America. Team X-Men fans hates team Avengers fans. Team Snyderverse hates Team MCU. It seemed like the marketing folk have mistaken the passion that comes from whipped up 'fans' hating on 'the other side' for a lasting love of their character that's going to earn then a loyal lasting customer, and not someone just whipped into a passing faddish frenzy and as likely to wander off to the next ginned-up controversy that inflames their passions, than remain 'Team Edward' or 'Team Iron Man' fans for life. (Or, worse, turn on them in outrage when they begin to write a storyline that makes their chosen side look bad, or lose to the other side.)

    It seems short-sighted, to me. I can totally get why I would want to do something like that for the Twilight movies. Three movies and we're done. Ooh, Team Werewolf is gonna be pissed that we built up a 'rivalry' and had the Vampire planned to 'win' in the end and were just stringing the suckers along, but who cares, we got their money, and we're not making a franchise for the ages here.

    But for something like Marvel vs. DC, or even factions within a single company, like X-Men vs. Avengers? These are IPs that are meant to be making money *for decades*, and it doesn't seem like a good long-term marketing strategy to be dividing the fanbase into screaming camps who can't enjoy the shared property together and build the fanbase.
    I don't know enough about DC 'feuds' other than being neglectful of people faves, but Marvel's big mistake has been making their characters compete to be the biggest jerk. So instead of focusing on what makes each of our faves great we end up ignoring their flaws (which are glaring) and argue all about the flaws of the 'other side'. Even just looking at X-Men, there has been so much "Cyclops was right" chanting not because he was right, but because Marvel was trying to paint him as a villain while dumping on mutantkind for years with no alternative. I think this is where I dip my toe into the critical theory side and notice the psychological aspect of such story telling on the reader. It is not helping Marvel make X-Men readers try out other things if they are somehow making X-Men readers see the rest of the Marvel U as mutant hating bigots, or apathetic to genocide at best.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    I always feel its healthy to take a step back when judging people’s views of how the world should be. Most of the times, it comes from a good place. The sad thing is, we live in a society. Society has a way of taking our views to the extreme and it becomes us vs them. It is almost impossible not to feel like this at times especially now that we have social media and all these echo chambers where opinions and beliefs get bellowed to the point where they just become battlecries or hashtags or memes. I feel that the majority of people do not give in to these things but they are just drowned out by people who frankly have way to much time on their hands. They feel that flaming and trolling somehow equates to activism. Then there are lines being blurred on issues like politics and race and you have certain people who make a full time job in making these things be the forefront of every conversation. While these are definitely topics that will define our generation and those to come, you have to stop and ask yourself if some of these people are even in these debates to make the world a better place or are they just doing it because they like to see people get riled up? I think that is why most people choose to lurk instead of say anything because the goal posts are constantly being moved to fit certain agendas. You can even have certain groups who do a lot of good but just get so popular that they attract all kinds of people who do not really know what they are saying when they go to stir the pot.
    Absolutely, it's so easy to assume the worst in this anonymous digital age we're living in and forget to show grace to others.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I don't know enough about DC 'feuds' other than being neglectful of people faves, but Marvel's big mistake has been making their characters compete to be the biggest jerk. So instead of focusing on what makes each of our faves great we end up ignoring their flaws (which are glaring) and argue all about the flaws of the 'other side'. Even just looking at X-Men, there has been so much "Cyclops was right" chanting not because he was right, but because Marvel was trying to paint him as a villain while dumping on mutantkind for years with no alternative. I think this is where I dip my toe into the critical theory side and notice the psychological aspect of such story telling on the reader. It is not helping Marvel make X-Men readers try out other things if they are somehow making X-Men readers see the rest of the Marvel U as mutant hating bigots, or apathetic to genocide at best.
    For sure, a good measure of the "Cyclops Was Right" rhetoric was just to counter Marvel's garbage narrative during the post-AvX era. And yeah, I like some Avengers characters, Spider-Man, but I prefer X-Men and I'm not incentivized to read larger MU books when they're characterized as your described.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  9. #24
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Art Criticism first and foremost. If I don't like the art or the story/writing (technical skill) isn't interesting, I'm not buying or reading. I have neither time nor money to waste on something I don't/can't/won't appreciate.

    Critical Theory (social relevance) is a very distant, almost negligible last. I've never read comics to see myself represented. I don't care that the stories have real-world/social/political sensibilities. The overarching and/or underlying metatext the writer is expressing is of very little interest to me. Not that I don't acknowledge diversity and representation, real-world analogies (if done well) and a good "message" but really...I'm just here for the adventures and escapism and beauty-full art.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 04-18-2021 at 09:47 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa and Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  10. #25
    Incredible Member Malachi's Avatar
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    For me one, if not the biggest, asset the X-men have are their characters. That is where my interest when reading issues focuses.

    For me that is the catergory art critcism. More importantly the writing. Art for me have to glaringly distractingly bad for it to take me out of the story. I certainly appreciate good art and I have subjective inclinations that make me favor some artists or styles over another. Still panel use and other techniques are not subjective in that they must tell the story. A craft like any other.

    Writing can be bad in comics. Historically it has been bad. So bad that it seems many are forgiving, or turns a blind eye.
    There are many parts one could critique. Technical aspects that are part of the craft. Parts that sometimes are reduced to "subjective claims" on forums like this. Something that hinders the discussion. One also needs to sperate the work from thier own enjoyment. An issue might be bad in some parts and good in others while for you it's a really good issue. That doesn't make the critique of it less valid. It doesn't make your enjoyment less valid. We like what we like and it helps if we know why we like it.

    I for one is more forgiving if a issue has great interactions and overall a less engaging plot or premise. Others are the opposite. Or any other mix.

    A big plus is clever use of punctations. Rythm. Pace. Dialouge that has much subtext. Prosactic language. Philosophical themes. Relationship buildings that don't rely on instant connections.

  11. #26
    Being mysterious... From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Art Criticism
    The art: framing, composition, sequencing. Along with lettering, colouring, and of course the story itself.


    I mostly judge art by this. But then I've rarely disliked an artist and I think some artists just don't have a style to my liking does not mean they are bad artists. I really don't think too much on what the art offers society in a negative or a positive way. If that comes with it - great. I don't try to think overly much about it but X-Men its pretty hard to escape it. And isn't it already basically trying to offer something culturally and politically? Its not even something I need. Art doesn't have to mean anything. It can be pure aesthetics.
    The (old) Hank McCoy thread. https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-Thread-2020

    Interested in knowing more about Balder? https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-Thread-2020

  12. #27
    Houndmarks Subliminal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Art Criticism first and foremost. If I don't like the art or the story/writing (technical skill) isn't interesting, I'm not buying or reading. I have neither time nor money to waste on something I don't/can't/won't appreciate.

    Critical Theory (social relevance) is a very distant, almost negligible last. I've never read comics to see myself represented. I don't care that the stories have real-world/social/political sensibilities. The overarching and/or underlying metatext the writer is expressing is of very little interest to me. Not that I don't acknowledge diversity and representation, real-world analogies (if done well) and a good "message" but really...I'm just here for the adventures and escapism and beauty-full art.
    Your approach echoes my own. If the visual storytelling is lacking, I won't bother with a second read through to fully get into themes or social commentary. For the most part, I don't read comics for insights about human behavior or how the world works. Perhaps my 14-year-old self did. I read for nostalgia and appreciation of the absurd. I don't relate to any of my favorite characters, with their classical good-looks, perfect bodies, access to wealth, fame AND superhuman abilities on top of that... talk about privilege. Haha

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