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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Depowering is not genocide. Period. You assume that “no more mutants” means mutants who could fly suddenly fell out of the sky. That is not what was depicted. A mutant, the Scarlet Witch, decided to depower most of mutantkind. That is the whole of what she did, not genocide.
    Definitely not genocide, but still counts as mass murder or mass manslaughter.
    Like when Magneto with his worldwide EMP. Technically, the EMP itself didn't kill anyone directly, but people on a plane or on life support died.
    Bringing back the old, killing the young: that's the Marvel way

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    It was Raven who stirred the pot there. It's not like there isn't bad blood between them. Storm got annoyed when the Avengers threaten the children. Everything seemed fairly justified.
    This. I’m not sure why people have been just actively looking for drama and reasons to be offended with things in this era lately.
    Emma Frost, Rogue, Felicia Hardy, Helena Bertinelli, Allison Blaire, Barbara Gordon, Monica Rambeau, Carol Danvers, Illyana Rasputin, Ororo Munroe, Harleen Quinzel, Lorna Dane, Irene Adler, Kate Kane, Rachel Grey Summers, Jean Grey, Diana Prince, Barbara Ann Minerva, Donna Troy, Jennifer Walters, Gwen Stacy, Wanda Maximoff = PERFECTION!

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I cannot disagree with you. That’s also why it was horrible to have Grant Morrison depict a fictional genocide in X-Men.

    I will give Hickman this — he has 58 years of craziness to try to make sense of, including what I think of as horrible runs like Morrison’s X-Men.

    BTW, I don’t hate everything Hickman has done. I love Hickman’s “Nimrod the Lesser,” “Nimrod the Greater,” and Mr. Sinister, although I think he gives credit to another writer for the current depiction of Sinister.
    I still don't get why Marvel is fixated on persecuting mutants. Wouldn't it be nice if they could be generally left alone? And in their original home countries? And not in regular conflict with the Avengers or any other heroes

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    I forgot she was even in the issue tbh.

    They all look alike.
    The Krakoans are EEEvil!

    THEY MUST BE STOPPED!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Originally Posted by jwatson
    Didn't the dude Magma was flying with fall into a volcano and die when he lost his powers on M day? No horse in the race but it was shown in various books mutants dying from the lost of their powers, some were fliers.

    I did not see that issue. Which titles and issue? It wasn’t shown that way in House of M. Even with that, which would be horrible, it would still not be a genocide. Mass murder, but not genocide.
    This page is from The X-Men: The 198 #1. In the pages before this, they show Magma and Antonio (never seen before or since) vacationing and falling in love, and deciding to romantically fly into a volcano right before Antonio gets depowered.

    RCO006_w_1470970763.jpg

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwyatt View Post
    This page is from The X-Men: The 198 #1. In the pages before this, they show Magma and Antonio (never seen before or since) vacationing and falling in love, and deciding to romantically fly into a volcano right before Antonio gets depowered.

    RCO006_w_1470970763.jpg
    Terrible, but still not a genocide.

    Then again, it’s not like anyone is clamoring for the return of Antonio. No one gives a f#ck about Antonio. Has Magma even mentioned it once since then? If she doesn’t care, why would anyone else? So, maybe not so terrible, LOL! And still not genocide!

    However, I do stand corrected, over the eminently forgettable death of Antonio.

  7. #52
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    If he hadn't been killed off, maybe he would've had the chance to gain popularity

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    If he hadn't been killed off, maybe he would've had the chance to gain popularity
    Amara and Mystique email the Five daily with resurrection requests

  9. #54
    Fantastic Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwyatt View Post
    This page is from The X-Men: The 198 #1. In the pages before this, they show Magma and Antonio (never seen before or since) vacationing and falling in love, and deciding to romantically fly into a volcano right before Antonio gets depowered.

    RCO006_w_1470970763.jpg
    oh god. Scarlet Witch should see this page then she would probably be less smug about her guilt. Get some telepaths to show her the pain she caused.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwyatt View Post
    Amara and Mystique email the Five daily with resurrection requests
    LMAO!! This is awesome!!!

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    I find it funny that Carol is concerned about the kids being thrown in jail. This is the person who was ready to toss Miles Morales in jail with no evidence because Ulysses had a vision of him killing Cap.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I wonder why none of the writers of her solo wanted to explore those connections so modern x-books could draw on them. Especially if they claimed to LOVE carol.

    Though kelly sue did have roguje come in during her run and explained her powers. I appreciated that. But obvs carol fans who loved her so much and wrote her didn't appreciate that time in her life. I have often wondered and was in disbelief about the same thing. No carol writer remembered her past with mutants and had her show up.
    They had poker night with logan too and in fearless carol, susan, ororo were together helping children as part of outreach.

    I asked kelly thompson if she could include mystique or other x-men or even the brood, but she said she can't, it's with the x-offices atleast for something bigger than poker night with logan (which was fun, and krakoa wasnt treated negatively) or Alternate realities like the current arc.

    It seems that for real stories involving mutants, its on the x-office side unless there's a giant crossover or if theres a writer with a very big influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Hm. But why wouldn’t Carol feel some type of way with Mystique there? Seems like a pretty good continuity pull for those two characters.
    the avengers were written like strawmen here. You can headcanon that perhaps carol was upset at seeing mystique (I do), but I must concede that there isn't anything indicating it (nor contradicting). Vita even posted the page on her twitter, but it was celebratory, so it seemed to be written for the clapback, nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yeah but then they used her that for that scene with Emma and so most X-Men fans hate her...
    Is it just me or do most x-fans don't fully understand that scene. It's more about lashing out in guilt and trauma, misrepresenting or misunderstanding Carol's intent to help, conflating her with tony. In short, the comic opens with them investigating guthrie's death and carol wishes to bring it to them personally because she didn't want it getting tied with military restrictions and emotional aspect, showing her good intent. Her passing the information on directly to the x-men which actually helped them figure out it was nimrod (while ONE had a lot redtape, including confiscating stryker's gauntlet as evidence). Even her wishing to talk about the registration was a matter of wanting to help the x-men (for various reasons I won't go into) and she tries to reiterate it at the end. You may disagree with that, but her intent was genuine (and so was emma's even in her off or wrong decisions during that run, especially with laura, and the other adults as well). That's also why she later came to the wake in that run, showing a sense of mutual acknowledgement b/w emma and carol showing her genuine intents, and was also there in the x-men civil war mini where the pro-reg side managed to save the mutant refugees.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 04-19-2021 at 01:52 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Depowering is not genocide. Period. You assume that “no more mutants” means mutants who could fly suddenly fell out of the sky. That is not what was depicted. A mutant, the Scarlet Witch, decided to depower most of mutantkind. That is the whole of what she did, not genocide.
    Depowering is genocide if powers are the trait of the race.

    Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
    Genocide is not "killing a lot of people". It's "killing of a people". Depowering caused mental harm to the people, it prevented births within the group as no more mutants were being born, it involved forcible transfer as mutants were turned into humans.

    The only question of culpability is of intent and the control wanda had over her thoughts, feelings and actions. But that seems to be conflicting depending on book. UA and Axis puts it on Doom for manipulating wanda, CC leaves it ambiguous, in the original HoM wanda had no control over her situation whatsoever and she said those words because of Magneto.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    They had poker night with logan too and in fearless carol, susan, ororo were together helping children as part of outreach.

    I asked kelly thompson if she could include mystique or other x-men or even the brood, but she said she can't, it's with the x-offices atleast for something bigger than poker night with logan (which was fun, and krakoa wasnt treated negatively) or Alternate realities like the current arc.

    It seems that for real stories involving mutants, its on the x-office side unless there's a giant crossover or if theres a writer with a very big influence.



    the avengers were written like strawmen here. You can headcanon that perhaps carol was upset at seeing mystique (I do), but I must concede that there isn't anything indicating it (nor contradicting). Vita even posted the page on her twitter, but it was celebratory, so it seemed to be written for the clapback, nothing else.



    Is it just me or do most x-fans don't fully understand that scene. It's more about lashing out in guilt and trauma, misrepresenting or misunderstanding Carol's intent to help, conflating her with tony. In short, the comic opens with them investigating guthrie's death and carol wishes to bring it to them personally because she didn't want it getting tied with military restrictions and emotional aspect, showing her good intent. Her passing the information on directly to the x-men which actually helped them figure out it was nimrod (while ONE had a lot redtape, including confiscating stryker's gauntlet as evidence). Even her wishing to talk about the registration was a matter of wanting to help the x-men (for various reasons I won't go into) and she tries to reiterate it at the end. You may disagree with that, but her intent was genuine (and so was emma's even in her off or wrong decisions during that run, especially with laura, and the other adults as well). That's also why she later came to the wake in that run, showing a sense of mutual acknowledgement b/w emma and carol showing her genuine intents, and was also there in the x-men civil war mini where the pro-reg side managed to save the mutant refugees.
    Oh i just want to be clear, i read those books, i have read all of carol series so far because i actually do like Carol having read both sides it gets annoying to me that people assume x-fans should just infer what doesn't exist. Don't do the stories coming from that line if they aren't ready to deal with them. If you go get the event that happened in the main books and match them to what was happening in the x-books it makes no sense for one side to supposedly not have access to these characters like mutants but are the ones creating all the laws that in the world effect mutants but then only one side is suppose to seem to adhere to it. A lot of people just want to see their mutants on adventures just like people want to see Carol but one side doesn't have to pull double duty but it's expected from the other. Just my opinion. I can like a character, follow them, ignore in carol book what she isn't doing and acknowledge at a time when her book should have touched on a topic she was at the forefront of she didn't. And so i think even that scene with Emma was fair.

    Also just wanted to add it makes the writers and editors at the time look worst to me. a genocide happened, a mutant killing gas, all these things from the main line and they went to all those retreats, came up with all those stories and was like we'll we'll just let them write whatever they want and circle back in another event. To me i question if they cared. Like how do you just ignore that in the writers room and care about these characters or this that universe. it doesn't gel.
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-19-2021 at 03:39 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Oh i just want to be clear, i read those books, i have read all of carol series so far because i actually do like Carol having read both sides it gets annoying to me that people assume x-fans should just infer what doesn't exist. Don't do the stories coming from that line if they aren't ready to deal with them. If you go get the event that happened in the main books and match them to what was happening in the x-books it makes no sense for one side to supposedly not have access to these characters like mutants but are the ones creating all the laws that in the world effect mutants but then only one side is suppose to seem to adhere to it. A lot of people just want to see their mutants on adventures just like people want to see Carol but one side doesn't have to pull double duty but it's expected from the other. Just my opinion. I can like a character, follow them, ignore in carol book what she isn't doing and acknowledge at a time when her book should have touched on a topic she was at the forefront of she didn't.
    The line/law in question is affecting the young heroes. Not mutants specifically. It is not a mutant specific law. The law is being dealt with in those books. The mainline x-books aren't dealing with, nor are the mainline adult books.

    Books which actually show the law or dealing with it: Runways, powerpack, Ms Marvel, Champions, ghost spider, CoTA, miles morales spider-man etc. All of them about young heroes including CoTA specifically, rather than it being the whole X-line.

    And no, "one side" is not supposed to be adhering to it. They aren't wholesale either.

    I'm also not asking you to infer what isn't there. It is there, it's shown explicitly. I give examples, I show the framing i use the tie ins to get a good idea. You're telling me "it isn't there", so am I crazy for seeing things shown? It may have been understandable, but fair? Nope. But I think its entirely different from what happened in CoTA where they're written as strawmen, vs New X-men where they're written as characters struggling to save these kids, but failing at every turn and lashing out, over-correcting, but also acknowledging that they may have been wrong about certain people.

    But I guess nothing matters. Hero vs Hero is all that matters now, even if it doesn't make sense in a situation. Nuance is gone. Subtlety is gone. Nothing matters anymore.

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