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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    The line/law in question is affecting the young heroes. Not mutants specifically. It is not a mutant specific law. The law is being dealt with in those books. The mainline x-books aren't dealing with, nor are the mainline adult books.

    Books which actually show the law or dealing with it: Runways, powerpack, Ms Marvel, Champions, ghost spider, CoTA, miles morales spider-man etc. All of them about young heroes including CoTA specifically, rather than it being the whole X-line.

    And no, "one side" is not supposed to be adhering to it. They aren't wholesale either.

    I'm also not asking you to infer what isn't there. It is there, it's shown explicitly. I give examples, I show the framing i use the tie ins to get a good idea. You're telling me "it isn't there", so am I crazy for seeing things shown? It may have been understandable, but fair? Nope. But I think its entirely different from what happened in CoTA where they're written as strawmen, vs New X-men where they're written as characters struggling to save these kids, but failing at every turn and lashing out, over-correcting, but also acknowledging that they may have been wrong about certain people.

    But I guess nothing matters. Hero vs Hero is all that matters now, even if it doesn't make sense in a situation. Nuance is gone. Subtlety is gone. Nothing matters anymore.
    I would be annoyed if the avengers showed up at my door when they couldn't even save their own sidekicks. We saw storm and co helping in champions and then those same three who are directly linked to the ones marauders saved show up to tell them some mutants may be in danger. Cause I read those books too and it's just not how it works and the law does affect mutants who have not seeked amnesty on krakoa like the mutant juggernaut saved in his own book.

    They weren't even doing subtle, subtle would be a panel of Carol mentioning her mutant friends when they are going through a hard time. It is on the writers for not thinking carol spent significant time let me use one page of her book in case a storm fan, or rogue fan followers her but nope. I know some people who completely abandoned the main line for that very reason. Once it became about tights marvel lost their mind. Now they have to fix it, it's not on the fans. They can use mutants in mutant force that is upcoming. Carlo using them in her future story right now.

    And it's not subtle when one side always has to deal with it. Every book in x-line was swallowed by that terrigen crap. No mutant fan asked for decimation, no mutant fan asked for terrigen gas. But we couldn't escape it unless we dropped our books. Carol and co could start something in a mini then go enjoy their adventuring until it was addressed again
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-19-2021 at 04:21 AM.
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  2. #62
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    Also just wanted to add it makes the writers and editors at the time look worst to me. a genocide happened, a mutant killing gas, all these things from the main line and they went to all those retreats, came up with all those stories and was like we'll we'll just let them write whatever they want and circle back in another event. To me i question if they cared. Like how do you just ignore that in the writers room and care about these characters or this that universe. it doesn't gel.
    Endless genocide is something every x-fan complained about for years. But hey, when IVX was happing, there was also the chitauri invasion destroying entire solar systems coming towards earth, and sending massive waves of refugees to earth because they had nowhere else to go that people like carol was struggling to manage. Earlier in the x-men cwii tie in they showed ulysses visions being given to ororo, a-force caring about dazzlers mpox etc.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Endless genocide is something every x-fan complained about for years. But hey, when IVX was happing, there was also the chitauri invasion destroying entire solar systems coming towards earth, and sending massive waves of refugees to earth because they had nowhere else to go that people like carol was struggling to manage. Earlier in the x-men cwii tie in they showed ulysses visions being given to ororo, a-force caring about dazzlers mpox etc.
    I would agree Carol cares about her friends that she knows but thats a far reach from being able to say carol cares about mutants in general or the plights they are facing. She has been the face of a few.

    And to me that read like "oh our line is pimping the inhumans, we created a whole gas them storyline for the entire mu, so let's take our heros off planet by creating another event at the same time so they don't have to deal with it. It just makes no sense but everyone was so proud of the stories they came up with. even inhumans didn't want to deal with their own religious gas.
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-19-2021 at 04:59 AM.
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  4. #64
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    Thinking about it futher the main line definitely has a huge problem with creating an event then trying to take the character of the table. Like outlaw, if carol spent one panel in her book dealing with outlaw before going to sleep and waking up in a dystopian future i would be the first to be like, Well vita, over in her book she was on her way and ended up in an alternate future. But... that's not what we were given. Why create the stories then take the players involved off the board. Why even make a line wine directive in the first place if you have no intent of your writers having to deal with it from the start.

    Or why can Cap be shown breaking up a sex trade organization in his own book but it doesn't take the time to show what he is doing for the children in universe affected by outlaw or being detained in America or other countries. Those are mainly human children now so it looks even worse imo but they dropped the ball too long.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I would agree Carol cares about her friends that she knows but thats a far reach from being able to say carol cares about mutants in general or the plights they are facing. She has been the face of a few.

    And to me that read like "oh our line is pimping the inhumans, we created a whole gas them storyline for the entire mu, so let's take our heros off planet by creating another event at the same time so they don't have to deal with it. It just makes no sense but everyone was so proud of the stories they came up with. even inhumans didn't want to deal with their own religious gas.
    she hasn't been the face of any (yet), and she does care about the plight of mutants. It's not a far reach to say that. When claremont wrote her he made it clear that she did care about mutants plight, and she did come to their aid handful of times when he wrote her, including using her DOD position to help for the brief time she had it and it wasn't just because she was friends with the x-men. Even the emma situation actually showed that she did care, and she wanted to genuinely help.

    and bruh captain marvel got dragged into these events and broke the flow of her own book too. It makes sense that the heroes were too spread thin. XYZ heroes were busy with ABC problem therefore cannot be in 123's book has been a deal since the shared comic universe started being made.

    edit: also, juggernaut's book didn't deal with Outlawed at all. It was damage control, but wasn't related to Kamala's law. I keep telling you it wasn't a line wide thing, but mainly affecting only the young heroes and their books dealt with it.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 04-19-2021 at 05:18 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    she hasn't been the face of any (yet), and she does care about the plight of mutants. It's not a far reach to say that. When claremont wrote her he made it clear that she did care about mutants plight, and she did come to their aid handful of times when he wrote her, including using her DOD position to help for the brief time she had it and it wasn't just because she was friends with the x-men. Even the emma situation actually showed that she did care, and she wanted to genuinely help.

    and bruh captain marvel got dragged into these events and broke the flow of her own book too. It makes sense that the heroes were too spread thin. XYZ heroes were busy with ABC problem therefore cannot be in 123's book has been a deal since the shared comic universe started being made.

    edit: also, juggernaut's book didn't deal with Outlawed at all. It was damage control, but wasn't related to Kamala's law. I keep telling you it wasn't a line wide thing, but mainly affecting only the young heroes and their books dealt with it.
    I think one thing i'm starting to see is over the last decade or so it really becomes a point on how you feel about a shared universe. It makes no sense to me to say a book created by the main line should only be recognized in the x-line and that is what was happening. I think thats the gist of it. It's hard to enjoy what's suppose to be a shared universe where it seems the x-line is the toilet for the main line ideas. That is on the editors and writers no way around it imo but i'm just going in circles. I don't think anyone will change anyones mind. The law should have affected Cap and Carol because they had child sidekicks and have acting as mentors. It's that simple. They bring them in when they want sales etc but don't want to honor the stories that are being sold as company wide. Outlaw would change the marvel u forever, Civil War, Decimation, Inhuman Clouds. None of those stories where created by the x-line but we had to deal with them. Doesn't sound very shared to me.

    But i will say look at it this way. I was reading extraodinary at the time and i saw mutants dealing with the gas. I see them not wanting to destroy it, stuggling with something that should mean nothing to them because it was the inhumans time to take over earth i guess. Now i went and read uncanny inhumans and i see they are at the casino, they are having traditional adventures, they aren't even mentioning their sacred cloud. This went on for over 20 issues between two books while mutants living in limbo until it finally had to reach a point of saturation and they had to go to war. At that time Carol was training her new sidekick Ms. Marve and i believe david lopez was drawing at the time, best carol looked. So why start a new run for her at the same time you intend to release a gas to kill mutants but not take it into account. All those books were launching or relaunching around the same timel so it's not like she wasn't on earth or aware of the issues happening and the writers definitely were. Literally every other franchise got to see their team doing some sort of heroring while the entire x-line was literally dealing with being gassed to death. The company created those optics not fans.
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-19-2021 at 05:37 AM.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I think one thing i'm starting to see is over the last decade or so it really becomes a point on how you feel about a shared universe. It makes no sense to me to say a book created by the main line should only be recognized in the x-line and that is what was happening. I think thats the gist of it. It's hard to enjoy what's suppose to be a shared universe where it seems the x-line is the toilet for the main line ideas. That is on the editors and writers no way around it imo but i'm just going in circles. I don't think anyone will change anyones mind. The law should have affected Cap and Carol because they had child sidekicks and have acting as mentors. It's that simple. They bring them in when they want sales etc but don't want to honor the stories that are being sold as company wide. Outlaw would change the marvel u forever, Civil War, Decimation, Inhuman Clouds. None of those stories where created by the x-line but we had to deal with them. Doesn't sound very shared to me.
    Wait, what?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I think one thing i'm starting to see is over the last decade or so it really becomes a point on how you feel about a shared universe. It makes no sense to me to say a book created by the main line should only be recognized in the x-line and that is what was happening. I think thats the gist of it. It's hard to enjoy what's suppose to be a shared universe where it seems the x-line is the toilet for the main line ideas. That is on the editors and writers no way around it imo but i'm just going in circles. I don't think anyone will change anyones mind. The law should have affected Cap and Carol because they had child sidekicks and have acting as mentors. It's that simple. They bring them in when they want sales etc but don't want to honor the stories that are being sold as company wide. Outlaw would change the marvel u forever, Civil War, Decimation, Inhuman Clouds. None of those stories where created by the x-line but we had to deal with them. Doesn't sound very shared to me.
    Decimation/house of M was created to specifically affect the X-line because of the head editorial that transcended lines (quesada), as was IVX, wrong as it may be (imo they should've focused more on the genoshan genocide that morrison introduced and didn't treat it with the gravitas it needed). These two went beyond "lines".

    civil war wasn't, it was a general thing, and it was treated tangentially in the x-books. It derailed many of the character books like spider-man, ms marvel, avengers etc.

    Outlawed definitely didn't affect the whole line of either side, only the subset of young heroes

    At that time Carol was training her new sidekick Ms. Marve and i believe david lopez was drawing at the time, best carol looked. So why start a new run for her at the same time you intend to release a gas to kill mutants but not take it into account.
    when lopez was drawing her she was in space most of the time
    by the time the mpox plot started she was dealing with cosmic problems in the ultimates and space issues with alpha flight and pretty much simultaneously multiple events like cwii, secret empire etc happened that completely derailed her book. She was barely on earth during that period
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 04-19-2021 at 06:08 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Decimation/house of M was created to specifically affect the X-line because of the head editorial that transcended lines (quesada), as was IVX, wrong as it may be (imo they should've focused more on the genoshan genocide that morrison introduced and didn't treat it with the gravitas it needed). These two went beyond "lines".

    civil war wasn't, it was a general thing, and it was treated tangentially in the x-books. It derailed many of the character books like spider-man, ms marvel, avengers etc.

    Outlawed definitely didn't affect the whole line of either side, only the subset of young heroes



    when lopez was drawing her she was in space most of the time
    by the time the mpox plot started she was dealing with cosmic problems in the ultimates and space issues with alpha flight and pretty much simultaneously multiple events like cwii, secret empire etc happened. She was barely on earth during that period
    Well there you go, a page or two would have made all the difference at a time when your relaunching a new high flying book while at the same time her friends are being gassed to death and don't even have the luxury of enjoying open sky let alone space adventures. The line played it wrong.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Well there you go, a page or two would have made all the difference at a time when your relaunching a new high flying book while at the same time her friends are being gassed to death and don't even have the luxury of enjoying open sky let alone space adventures. The line played it wrong.
    I literally gave you examples of her involvement in these situations. by the x-book tie in or a-force
    It just feels like it went from "never ever even acknowledging" to "she was on earth" to "well she gets to enjoy space adventures"

    Ewing basically wrote in that she was sensing eternity in chains and having nightmares about the universe dying and not even really sleeping to explain her poor characterization during cwii and and her more sudden space and cosmic focus focus.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    I literally gave you examples of her involvement in these situations. by the x-book tie in or a-force
    It just feels like it went from "never ever even acknowledging" to "she was on earth" to "well she gets to enjoy space adventures"

    Ewing basically wrote in that she was sensing eternity in chains and having nightmares about the universe dying and not even really sleeping to explain her poor characterization during cwii and and her more sudden space and cosmic focus focus.
    I apologize for not stating it directly but i do acknowledge those things. I know what you are saying and i can see your point of view i just completely disagree with it. A-force had allison sick by m-pox yes but it didn't real deal with anything. It gave carol no sort of real view point on how she felt that her friends overall were being murdered by a gas and she never came through and contributed anything that ended the conflict. That is just a fact. It doesn't mean i don't like carol but for me it's an it is what it is situation. Also the x-books almost always take the time out to show the avengers as heroes, such as x-men red so for someone like me who read those other books it was like "it's nice the x-books can take their valuable time and acknowledge that the avengers at the very least help mutants to save the world sometimes" and then the other side of me can just as critically think "even though they kind of didn't show up or say anything in their own books." That is a fair assessment it's not personal.

    But it also becomes a little unfair imo when everytime the avengers appear it's expected to be shown that they are some deep friends when those connections aren't acknowledged in those books. when Marvel Now was formulated and the gas story developed no one in the writers room thought, "well let me get a panel in" I just find that so hard to believe.

    I guess the best way to put it would be it's like expecting me to expect Clark only revealed his identity as superman in his own book and no other book in DC acknowledged or was affected by it but the superman book.

    Or if none of the books right now acknowleded Diana is gone. It would make no sense.
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-19-2021 at 06:34 AM.
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  12. #72
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    Can't push the "all humans are genocidal racists" crap if you remind people of all the human allies and friends the X-Men have had over the years. Hell...Carol Danvers committed treason for the X-Men by helping them get into the Pentagon to destroy government files on the X-Men.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I apologize for not stating it directly but i do acknowledge those things. I know what you are saying and i can see your point of view i just completely disagree with it. A-force had allison sick by m-pox yes but it didn't real deal with anything. It gave carol no sort of real view point on how she felt that her friends overall were being murdered by a gas and she never came through and contributed anything that ended the conflict. That is just a fact. It doesn't mean i don't like carol but for me it's an it is what it is situation. Also the x-books almost always take the time out to show the avengers as heroes, such as x-men red so for someone like me who read those other books it was like "it's nice the x-books can take their valuable time and acknowledge that the avengers at the very least help mutants to save the world sometimes" and then the other side of me can just as critically think "even though they kind of didn't show up or say anything in their own books." That is a fair assessment it's not personal.

    But it also becomes a little unfair imo when everytime the avengers appear it's expected to be shown that they are some deep friends when those connections aren't acknowledged in those books. when Marvel Now was formulated and the gas story developed no one in the writers room thought, "well let me get a panel in" I just find that so hard to believe.

    I guess the best way to put it would be it's like expecting me to expect Clark only revealed his identity as superman in his own book and no other book in DC acknowledged or was affected by it but the superman book.

    Or if none of the books right now acknowleded Diana is gone. It would make no sense.
    x-men red was a seeming turning point of the general showings of how the avengers were portrayed in x-books. I thought it'd be enduring, but i guess not. It wasn't an "almost always" thing. It was an exception, seemingly.
    And yes, even in DC sometimes major things happen that the other books dont acknowledge.

    Those friendships are acknowledged. We literally come back to the same starting point.
    As you already said, giving a few panels in their books won't satisfy you, you want them to come in and solve the problem, but the onus of that would fall in the x-book. Yet at the same time you want their own books (which are already derailed by some event as well) to contribute in a major way to solving the conflict in the x-book (derailed by some event), so stepping on the toes of the x-writers and somehow get to request it. The only solution to this you see is they should bring the avengers to tear them down constantly (not like most books outside of carol's own don't do that anyway to her), and feel like that's the only fair solution.

    With IVX even the x-men themselves couldn't solve the problem despite having a weather Goddess on their side with planetary level atmokinesis.

    As always this has become entirely circular.

    Historically almost every book respected this rule. Every hero has some major problem they're dealing with, maybe personal, maybe world ending, maybe universe ending, that's why they can't show up in other books for this purpose atleast not all the time. Sometimes other books would include other heroes to help out.
    This issue is far too inherent to the comic media, and its flat out a trope, an accepted trope, and a common point of suspension of disbelief.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 04-19-2021 at 07:06 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    x-men red was a seeming turning point of the general showings of how the avengers were portrayed in x-books. I thought it'd be enduring, but i guess not. It wasn't an "almost always" thing. It was an exception, seemingly.
    And yes, even in DC sometimes major things happen that the other books dont acknowledge.

    Those friendships are acknowledged. We literally come back to the same starting point.
    As you already said, giving a few panels in their books won't satisfy you, you want them to come in and solve the problem, but the onus of that would fall in the x-book. Yet at the same time you want their own books (which are already derailed by some event as well) to contribute in a major way to solving the conflict in the x-book (derailed by some event), so stepping on the toes of the x-writers and somehow get to request it. The only solution to this you see is they should bring the avengers to tear them down constantly (not like most books outside of carol's own don't do that anyway to her), and feel like that's the only fair solution.

    With IVX even the x-men themselves couldn't solve the problem despite having a weather Goddess on their side with planetary level atmokinesis.

    As always this has become entirely circular.
    but it is ok for the marvel line to write mutants as aggressors in a vs x for trying to obtain something they thought could save their people. That is my point you can't have it both ways. Those books were foaming at the mouth to show their perspectives on that time in mutant history.

    And again you miss the overall point. I can't imagine any x-book writer came in at the time and said i want to write a book about mutants literally living in hell because they are being gassed to death. But that is the story the main line wanted to tell when they released the gas and pushed the inhumans. How the line dealt with it on both sides is what we have. Modern fans don't know the stories most here are referring to and it's not their responsibility in a shared universe to go search. Not one carol fan can post a single panel from her book of over 2 years that the terrigen was there that she approached the xmen to help in anyway but she was all in their face during A vs X. Those are facts.
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-19-2021 at 07:05 AM.
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    I think it always gets messy for us readers as we know that editorial has their hands in things and makes poor decisions when rolling out large-scale mandates that affect one majorly but have little to no consequences to the other books. And this goes across the board really, although the X-line has received more of the brunt than others in the recent past. As readers we are able to pick up multiple books and gather the stories told in them to give us an overview of what's happening. But if we were to view things from the perspective of a citizen of 661 (any character really), we would see just how not shared this universe is. And that's the difficult hurdle to leap over as we are privy to details or stories that aren't reflected in other books which paints a VERY different picture in universe.

    Using some of the examples above, yes Carol has had really close and tight ties with the X-Men. Have those waned over the years, sure, but overall she's a strong ally to the X-Men and mutants (you can disagree with me and that's ok). Should she have been painted as a stronger advocate for seeking a cure to aid to the M-Pox? Yes, especially since a teammate was afflicted by it. In her main book she had other priorities which brought her away from Earth, which also makes sense given her role. But where is the balance or nods in the books that count? I think it's the silence or ignorance that gets readers riled up. Using this example, why would the editors decide to create this massive cloud of death that directly impacts two entire lines to their cores in opposite ways, yet most of the other books and characters who you WOULD THINK would be trying to do SOMETHING just.... carry on? With M-Pox, the relative silence of many of the Avengers and other Marvel heroes towards the plight of mutants (both from the cloud itself and the intense hatred and persecution mutants then received), the vilification of Cyclops over NOTHING, and the reluctance to provide aid made them appear to be complicit with what was happening while also appearing to be ok with the Inhuman sovereignty and amassing of power, land, and people. We know as readers that their was a directive to make a push for the Inhumans as they were a franchise that Disney/Marvel had full rights to and were pushing as they had a (failed) tv show coming out. But as denizens of Earth-616 we would see that mutants were sick and causing disease. They were to be feared. While it was a blessing to be an Inhuman. And there was no strong narrative from any of the "heroes" that it should be otherwise.

    So long story-short: The hypocrisy of the shared universe cuts both ways, but the X-line tends to get the deeper cuts for reasons.

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