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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    I think it always gets messy for us readers as we know that editorial has their hands in things and makes poor decisions when rolling out large-scale mandates that affect one majorly but have little to no consequences to the other books. And this goes across the board really, although the X-line has received more of the brunt than others in the recent past. As readers we are able to pick up multiple books and gather the stories told in them to give us an overview of what's happening. But if we were to view things from the perspective of a citizen of 661 (any character really), we would see just how not shared this universe is. And that's the difficult hurdle to leap over as we are privy to details or stories that aren't reflected in other books which paints a VERY different picture in universe.

    Using some of the examples above, yes Carol has had really close and tight ties with the X-Men. Have those waned over the years, sure, but overall she's a strong ally to the X-Men and mutants (you can disagree with me and that's ok). Should she have been painted as a stronger advocate for seeking a cure to aid to the M-Pox? Yes, especially since a teammate was afflicted by it. In her main book she had other priorities which brought her away from Earth, which also makes sense given her role. But where is the balance or nods in the books that count? I think it's the silence or ignorance that gets readers riled up. Using this example, why would the editors decide to create this massive cloud of death that directly impacts two entire lines to their cores in opposite ways, yet most of the other books and characters who you WOULD THINK would be trying to do SOMETHING just.... carry on? With M-Pox, the relative silence of many of the Avengers and other Marvel heroes towards the plight of mutants (both from the cloud itself and the intense hatred and persecution mutants then received), the vilification of Cyclops over NOTHING, and the reluctance to provide aid made them appear to be complicit with what was happening while also appearing to be ok with the Inhuman sovereignty and amassing of power, land, and people. We know as readers that their was a directive to make a push for the Inhumans as they were a franchise that Disney/Marvel had full rights to and were pushing as they had a (failed) tv show coming out. But as denizens of Earth-616 we would see that mutants were sick and causing disease. They were to be feared. While it was a blessing to be an Inhuman. And there was no strong narrative from any of the "heroes" that it should be otherwise.

    So long story-short: The hypocrisy of the shared universe cuts both ways, but the X-line tends to get the deeper cuts for reasons.
    I could not have said it better.
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  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Thinking about it futher the main line definitely has a huge problem with creating an event then trying to take the character of the table. Like outlaw, if carol spent one panel in her book dealing with outlaw before going to sleep and waking up in a dystopian future i would be the first to be like, Well vita, over in her book she was on her way and ended up in an alternate future. But... that's not what we were given. Why create the stories then take the players involved off the board. Why even make a line wine directive in the first place if you have no intent of your writers having to deal with it from the start.

    Or why can Cap be shown breaking up a sex trade organization in his own book but it doesn't take the time to show what he is doing for the children in universe affected by outlaw or being detained in America or other countries. Those are mainly human children now so it looks even worse imo but they dropped the ball too long.
    This is a big question for me, Champions and Power Pack which are both part of Outlawed, have crossed over more with the X-Men than any member of the Avengers. Same with Runaways, they cross over more with the X-Men.

    It's almost like all the writers of the young adult line, Champions, Power Pack, Runaways, that all of these writers think the X-Men and Wolverine would be more sympathetic to the kids running from the authorities.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  3. #78
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    People need to just accept things like this. Both the Avengers and XMEN live in the same universe but at the same time they don't. This makes the Avengers seem colder as a result.

    For example, I believe Captain America truly cares about mutants. But unless a large number of his storylines become mutant-focused, it'll make him look bad because his part of the Marvel universe ignores the X-side a lot. And if a bunch of his stories are about mutants, then it becomes more of another X book.

    It's annoying the two franchises have to ignore each other a lot of the time, but it is what it is.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    People need to just accept things like this. Both the Avengers and XMEN live in the same universe but at the same time they don't. This makes the Avengers seem colder as a result.

    For example, I believe Captain America truly cares about mutants. But unless a large number of his storylines become mutant-focused, it'll make him look bad because his part of the Marvel universe ignores the X-side a lot. And if a bunch of his stories are about mutants, then it becomes more of another X book.

    It's annoying the two franchises have to ignore each other a lot of the time, but it is what it is.
    I don't think it has to go that far...but the occasional mutant related story line with him standing up for mutant rights...or mutants on the Avengers and dealing with mutant issues occasionally that way.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    People need to just accept things like this. Both the Avengers and XMEN live in the same universe but at the same time they don't. This makes the Avengers seem colder as a result.

    For example, I believe Captain America truly cares about mutants. But unless a large number of his storylines become mutant-focused, it'll make him look bad because his part of the Marvel universe ignores the X-side a lot. And if a bunch of his stories are about mutants, then it becomes more of another X book.

    It's annoying the two franchises have to ignore each other a lot of the time, but it is what it is.
    Or maybe not trying to continuously persecute mutants might help? Maybe both sides could join forces to actively stop it? Has the mutant persecution business ever made sense in the first place?

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    People need to just accept things like this. Both the Avengers and XMEN live in the same universe but at the same time they don't. This makes the Avengers seem colder as a result.

    For example, I believe Captain America truly cares about mutants. But unless a large number of his storylines become mutant-focused, it'll make him look bad because his part of the Marvel universe ignores the X-side a lot. And if a bunch of his stories are about mutants, then it becomes more of another X book.

    It's annoying the two franchises have to ignore each other a lot of the time, but it is what it is.
    Overall I don't disagree with what you're saying as it makes sense. Using your example, having a large number of mutant-focused stories for Cap dilutes his book and changes it entirely. But my counter to you is that we don't need a large number of stories to show he cares. We just need a few that are poignant. And right now there are none. Granted, his book has its own narrative and direction. But largely Cap appears to the general 616 denizen as part of the Avengers and government machine regardless if he thought he was a Hydra agent or whatever the case is. He's a beacon and the epitome of the white saviour, and for the most part he has remained silent in regards to supporting mutants rights. Not saying he hasn't or won't or hasn't done far more than say Tony Stark, but still he's silent.

    So yes, this is the we can have the cake but the frosting that connects the layers together is often missing or not made with the right ingredients so it tastes off.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Overall I don't disagree with what you're saying as it makes sense. Using your example, having a large number of mutant-focused stories for Cap dilutes his book and changes it entirely. But my counter to you is that we don't need a large number of stories to show he cares. We just need a few that are poignant. And right now there are none. Granted, his book has its own narrative and direction. But largely Cap appears to the general 616 denizen as part of the Avengers and government machine regardless if he thought he was a Hydra agent or whatever the case is. He's a beacon and the epitome of the white saviour, and for the most part he has remained silent in regards to supporting mutants rights. Not saying he hasn't or won't or hasn't done far more than say Tony Stark, but still he's silent.

    So yes, this is the we can have the cake but the frosting that connects the layers together is often missing or not made with the right ingredients so it tastes off.
    They should do a crossover event where there is a horrible attack on mutant children by the Purifiers and the Avengers end up being the first responders for once. I would like to see how they deal with it. Perhaps Captain America goes before the US Congress and demands that they pass a law making racism against mutants a hate crime, for the first time in years.

    You could even have it be a huge international incident, not just with Krakoa, but with different nationality students that were attending the school that was attacked. Particularly if there were several baseline human children that were caught in the attack and they tried to protect the mutant kids from the purifiers so the purifiers killed them for "protecting muties".

    It wouldn't be hard to do an event like this that causes a massive political stir with the entire Avengers roster getting caught up in the incident.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    People need to just accept things like this. Both the Avengers and XMEN live in the same universe but at the same time they don't. This makes the Avengers seem colder as a result.

    For example, I believe Captain America truly cares about mutants. But unless a large number of his storylines become mutant-focused, it'll make him look bad because his part of the Marvel universe ignores the X-side a lot. And if a bunch of his stories are about mutants, then it becomes more of another X book.

    It's annoying the two franchises have to ignore each other a lot of the time, but it is what it is.
    Captain America mosttly doesn't get involved wit mutants affair, because mutants have powers and can protect theirselves, so the focus is on people that can't defend theirselves.
    steve get too involved than why even have x-men?
    Also Captain america writers went to more realistic approacjhes than a fictionl minority

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Overall I don't disagree with what you're saying as it makes sense. Using your example, having a large number of mutant-focused stories for Cap dilutes his book and changes it entirely. But my counter to you is that we don't need a large number of stories to show he cares. We just need a few that are poignant. And right now there are none. Granted, his book has its own narrative and direction. But largely Cap appears to the general 616 denizen as part of the Avengers and government machine regardless if he thought he was a Hydra agent or whatever the case is. He's a beacon and the epitome of the white saviour, and for the most part he has remained silent in regards to supporting mutants rights. Not saying he hasn't or won't or hasn't done far more than say Tony Stark, but still he's silent.

    So yes, this is the we can have the cake but the frosting that connects the layers together is often missing or not made with the right ingredients so it tastes off.
    There are plenty of White mutants. How is Cap a white savior?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    This is a big question for me, Champions and Power Pack which are both part of Outlawed, have crossed over more with the X-Men than any member of the Avengers. Same with Runaways, they cross over more with the X-Men.

    It's almost like all the writers of the young adult line, Champions, Power Pack, Runaways, that all of these writers think the X-Men and Wolverine would be more sympathetic to the kids running from the authorities.
    runaways had a mutant (molly) so it makes sense to establish the mutant status quo for her.
    However, the reasoning is more that the avengers might be able to do too much and literally solver the whole problem. Which is why they took off the table, and stopped krakoa from interfering beyond 1 rescue because of geopolitics

    In power pack, wolverine helped by just following the law and becoming a temporary mentor for a hot minute while the power pack kids went to the other heroes first (and they said captain marvel not in the solar system or sth and wolverine was the only one available). It's not something someone like cap couldn't do. It didn't involve breaking any law. He definitely helped in the miles morales book on similar grounds

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    in anyway but she was all in their face during A vs X. Those are facts.
    she was not all up in their face then. She was in deep space trying to prevent the phoenix from destroying planets on the way there. She only showed up later when the P5 had visibly lost control.


    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Overall I don't disagree with what you're saying as it makes sense. Using your example, having a large number of mutant-focused stories for Cap dilutes his book and changes it entirely. But my counter to you is that we don't need a large number of stories to show he cares. We just need a few that are poignant. And right now there are none. Granted, his book has its own narrative and direction. But largely Cap appears to the general 616 denizen as part of the Avengers and government machine regardless if he thought he was a Hydra agent or whatever the case is. He's a beacon and the epitome of the white saviour, and for the most part he has remained silent in regards to supporting mutants rights. Not saying he hasn't or won't or hasn't done far more than say Tony Stark, but still he's silent.

    So yes, this is the we can have the cake but the frosting that connects the layers together is often missing or not made with the right ingredients so it tastes off.
    there have been many smaller stories showing that he cares in his books, x-books, avengers books and so on. It'll never be enough. The giant event idea someone else said was sound, but it'll easily be reversed in terms of perception. Hes even yelled at sharon carter for heading up a antimutant squad under shield in a logan/cap crossover.
    It never matters in the longterm.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 04-19-2021 at 09:23 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Overall I don't disagree with what you're saying as it makes sense. Using your example, having a large number of mutant-focused stories for Cap dilutes his book and changes it entirely. But my counter to you is that we don't need a large number of stories to show he cares. We just need a few that are poignant. And right now there are none. Granted, his book has its own narrative and direction. But largely Cap appears to the general 616 denizen as part of the Avengers and government machine regardless if he thought he was a Hydra agent or whatever the case is. He's a beacon and the epitome of the white saviour, and for the most part he has remained silent in regards to supporting mutants rights. Not saying he hasn't or won't or hasn't done far more than say Tony Stark, but still he's silent.

    So yes, this is the we can have the cake but the frosting that connects the layers together is often missing or not made with the right ingredients so it tastes off.
    But are we gonna have Captain America do a a very special issue about mutants every time they face another extermination event? Every other Cap book would have to be about this. If they do a story about him being supportive during one of the many exterminations the XMen face, then he looks bad the following extermination stories where he remains silent. But his book can't keep up with constant exterminations the Xmen face without becoming an X book itself.

    On top of this, these franchises must have rules about how they can have big characters guest star. What if the writer wants to use Storm in the Cap America story, but that would spoil a big story for Storm in the X-books? Having characters interact in a more normal basis can get complicated. The X writers can interact with each other in a much easier manner than they can with the other franchise team, and vice versa.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    Ironically now more of them are dead than when Wanda "killed" them.
    Which issue led you to this conclusion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    It was bad enough when it was the super terrorists Magneto and Rogue..
    Rouge?!? Really lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Now, the Krakoan nation have in Marvel continuity a Nazi war criminal who performed concentration camp experiments on children in its governing body, Mr. Sinister. They also have would-be world conquerors, like Apocalypse in its government, or did until the end of X of Swords. They also have regular super criminals like Sebastian Shaw. Then there’s Xavier’s mutant resurrection, incubator/hatching and reproduction plan, literally.
    Sinister isnt a Nazi tho. And Every team has shady Members....I mean The Pretender tried to Genocide the Mutants, Cap America was Cap Hydra, Ant man invented Ultron, How many planets did the Illuminati blow up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    What's the issue with Xavier bringing mutants back to life from death? .
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Heroes get revived all the time, so I can't really see why mutants shouldn't be revived

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    oh god. Scarlet Witch should see this page then she would probably be less smug about her guilt. Get some telepaths to show her the pain she caused.
    Oh she knows
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Can't push the "all humans are genocidal racists" crap if you remind people of all the human allies and friends the X-Men have had over the years.
    not sure which books you're reading but we see what we wanna see
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Depowering is not genocide. Period. You assume that “no more mutants” means mutants who could fly suddenly fell out of the sky. That is not what was depicted. A mutant, the Scarlet Witch, decided to depower most of mutantkind. That is the whole of what she did, not genocide.
    Well this didn't age well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    There is zero difference between the Hellfire Club’s plans in X-Men #132 and what Xavier is doing right now. I see it as incongruous with Xavier’s and the X-Men’s previously stated goals.
    What were their goals in that issue?
    Annnd How?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    You can love the Hickman run. I don’t so far. I have come here... not to praise Hickman...But I’ll keep reading for a while.
    The actual comics Orr?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I cannot disagree with you. That’s also why it was horrible to have Grant Morrison depict a fictional genocide in X-Men.
    Soooo it Is a Genocide?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Terrible, but still not a genocide.

    Then again, it’s not like anyone is clamoring for the return of Antonio. No one gives a f#ck about Antonio. Has Magma even mentioned it once since then? If she doesn’t care, why would anyone else? So, maybe not so terrible, LOL! And still not genocide!
    Hmmm Genocide and LOL-ing in the same sentence was....a choice.

    a certain number of people have to care before you consider it a Genocide.
    Interesting
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    However, I do stand corrected, over the eminently forgettable death of Antonio.
    among other things....but obviously his Death wasn'tforgettable hence it was brought up....And Magma and Argent are prob waist deep in a volcano somewhere making it hotter lol
    GrindrStone(D)

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Sinister isnt a nazi? he worked with nazis , soon Mengele won't be a nazi too

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Sinister isnt a nazi? he worked with nazis , soon Mengele won't be a nazi too
    Not only Sinister but also Dr Nemesis...surprised Magneto is OK with them.

  15. #90
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    You'd think Magneto would be uncomfortable with that.

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