Captain Marvel in Children of the Atom #2

[gonnagiveittoya]

Plus the depowered kids all got their powers back after Apocalypse cleaved them in half and smashed them into a red paste before cheering crowds and friends and family. Ironically now more of them are dead than when Wanda "killed" them.

[Brian B]

I know Krakoa is home for all mutants, but okaying a bunch of murderers doesn't seem good for diplomacy.

Admittedly, I'd like if the division between A and X in Marvel subsides.

Well, that’s the whole problem with Hickman’s X books in a nutshell, isn’t it?

The X-Men tradition of taking a villain and reforming them — Morlocks, Magneto, Rogue, etc. — is coming up against tolerable limits.

It was bad enough when it was the super terrorists Magneto and Rogue. It was difficult not to see Rogue as someone who had wronged people as a literal misguided kid, but is trying to reform.

Now, the Krakoan nation have in Marvel continuity a Nazi war criminal who performed concentration camp experiments on children in its governing body, Mr. Sinister. They also have would-be world conquerors, like Apocalypse in its government, or did until the end of X of Swords. They also have regular super criminals like Sebastian Shaw. Then there’s Xavier’s mutant resurrection, incubator/hatching and reproduction plan, literally.

Does anyone else remember X-Men circa #132, or so, and remember what the Hellfire Club’s big, nefarious plans were? Producing mutants to use for their plans. It seems like the X-Men could have saved themselves decades of wasted time if they just got on board with that plan back then, because now it is Xavier’s plan. In continuity, the irony cannot be lost on Shaw and Emma.

We can’t forget that the X-Men also just invited to Earth and helped bring back the other half of Krakoa from, basically, Hell. Along with that, they aided in the migration to Krakoa and Earth thousands if not millions of demons who hate mankind. Like I said, I think we’re going past tolerable limits of weirdness in Xavier’s plans.

[Brian B]

Plus the depowered kids all got their powers back after Apocalypse cleaved them in half and smashed them into a red paste before cheering crowds and friends and family. Ironically now more of them are dead than when Wanda "killed" them.

Remember though, Wanda didn’t actually commit a genocide. Hickman’s recounting of “no more mutants” conveniently leaves out that Wanda depowered mutants, not murdered them. Also, it’s convenient that they all go along with Scarlet Witch is not a mutant, when, c’mon, we all know she’s Magneto’s kid.

I know you know this stuff, gonnagiveittoya, and I note your use of quotes around “killed.” I know we’re on the same page on a lot of criticism on this forum around Hickman’s run. I’m not trying to critique your point, just expand upon it, hopefully.

I don’t really view any disagreements over a comicbook’s plot as a serious argument anyway, as long as it isn’t used to promote prejudice in real life. It’s all just debate over story directions in all of our mutual fandom.

[CosmiComic]

Well, that’s the whole problem with Hickman’s X books in a nutshell, isn’t it?

The X-Men tradition of taking a villain and reforming them — Morlocks, Magneto, Rogue, etc. — is coming up against tolerable limits.

It was bad enough when it was the super terrorists Magneto and Rogue, and it was difficult not to see Rogue as someone who had wronged people as a literal misguided kid, but is trying to reform.

Now, the Krakoan nation have in Marvel continuity a Nazi war criminal who performed concentration camp experiments on children in its governing body, Mr. Sinister. They also have would-be world conquerors, like Apocalypse in its government, or did until the end of X of Swords. They also have regular super criminals like Sebastian Shaw. Then there’s Xavier’s mutant resurrection, incubator/hatching and reproduction plan, literally.

Does anyone else remember X-Men circa #132, or so, and remember what the Hellfire Club’s big, nefarious plans were? Producing mutants to use for their plans. It seems like the X-Men could have saved themselves decades of wasted time if they just got on board with that plan back then, because now it is Xavier’s plan. In continuity, the irony cannot be lost on Shaw and Emma.

I’m omitting that the X-Men also invited to Earth and helped bring back the other half of Krakoa from basically Hell, importing to Krakoa and Earth thousands if not millions of demons who hate mankind. Like I said, I think we’re going past tolerable limits in Xavier’s plans.

It's also weird to see Avengers blamed for not helping out X-Men all those years, when that's due to real-world editorial mandates. Maybe if Marvel wasn't so dead set on keeping mutants persecuted, it wouldn't seem like such a massive plot hole.

The idea of any mutant somehow being above reproach in Krakoa seems a bit elitist

[Harpsikord]

Well, that’s the whole problem with Hickman’s X books in a nutshell, isn’t it?

The X-Men tradition of taking a villain and reforming them — Morlocks, Magneto, Rogue, etc. — is coming up against tolerable limits.

It was bad enough when it was the super terrorists Magneto and Rogue. It was difficult not to see Rogue as someone who had wronged people as a literal misguided kid, but is trying to reform.

Now, the Krakoan nation have in Marvel continuity a Nazi war criminal who performed concentration camp experiments on children in its governing body, Mr. Sinister. They also have would-be world conquerors, like Apocalypse in its government, or did until the end of X of Swords. They also have regular super criminals like Sebastian Shaw. Then there’s Xavier’s mutant resurrection, incubator/hatching and reproduction plan, literally.

Does anyone else remember X-Men circa #132, or so, and remember what the Hellfire Club’s big, nefarious plans were? Producing mutants to use for their plans. It seems like the X-Men could have saved themselves decades of wasted time if they just got on board with that plan back then, because now it is Xavier’s plan. In continuity, the irony cannot be lost on Shaw and Emma.

We can’t forget that the X-Men also just invited to Earth and helped bring back the other half of Krakoa from, basically, Hell. Along with that, they aided in the migration to Krakoa and Earth thousands if not millions of demons who hate mankind. Like I said, I think we’re going past tolerable limits of weirdness in Xavier’s plans.

There are a few things that are wrong or incorrect about this ideology though.

I'll give you the Mr Sinister thing but that's literally meant as something that was wrong and bad from the get-go. It's an ongoing plot that Mr Sinister on Krakoa is a problem; Moira didn't want him there and Charles and Erik brought him on anyway because they felt that they knew best in comparison to her. They don't and it'll probably bite them in the ass.

What's the issue with Xavier bringing mutants back to life from death? He's not mass producing them, he's bringing them back from a wrongful death and making a way that mutants are actually and genuinely allowed to live when the world has shown time and again that it hates them and doesn't want them around, and will do so many more things to get to a point that mutants just... aren't here anymore. I'll give you that his whole thing with the Krakoan drugs is a little seedy in the way he wants to roll them out and use them but there's nothing wrong with the Resurrection Protocols.

And I think you entirely misunderstood the concept of Arakko and Amenth. It's true that Amenth is considered a hell dimension that's filled with demons, but Arakko itself didn't have any demons on it despite the fact that it was there. The Krakoans didn't bring any demons into this world beyond the ones that were already here.

[CosmiComic]

There are a few things that are wrong or incorrect about this ideology though.

I'll give you the Mr Sinister thing but that's literally meant as something that was wrong and bad from the get-go. It's an ongoing plot that Mr Sinister on Krakoa is a problem; Moira didn't want him there and Charles and Erik brought him on anyway because they felt that they knew best in comparison to her. They don't and it'll probably bite them in the ass.

What's the issue with Xavier bringing mutants back to life from death? He's not mass producing them, he's bringing them back from a wrongful death and making a way that mutants are actually and genuinely allowed to live when the world has shown time and again that it hates them and doesn't want them around, and will do so many more things to get to a point that mutants just... aren't here anymore. I'll give you that his whole thing with the Krakoan drugs is a little seedy in the way he wants to roll them out and use them but there's nothing wrong with the Resurrection Protocols.

And I think you entirely misunderstood the concept of Arakko and Amenth. It's true that Amenth is considered a hell dimension that's filled with demons, but Arakko itself didn't have any demons on it despite the fact that it was there. The Krakoans didn't bring any demons into this world beyond the ones that were already here.

Heroes get revived all the time, so I can't really see why mutants shouldn't be revived

[Rang10]

It's also weird to see Avengers blamed for not helping out X-Men all those years, when that's due to real-world editorial mandates. Maybe if Marvel wasn't so dead set on keeping mutants persecuted, it wouldn't seem like such a massive plot hole.

The idea of any mutant somehow being above reproach in Krakoa seems a bit elitist

People know very well how a shared universe works, they just want to keep hating on Avengers for not magically solving all mutants problems.

Its a free pass because of genetics

It was Raven who stirred the pot there. It's not like there isn't bad blood between them. Storm got annoyed when the Avengers threaten the children. Everything seemed fairly justified.

They were giving a heads up, they aren't in favor of the law or enforcing it

[Brian B]

...What's the issue with Xavier bringing mutants back to life from death? He's not mass producing them, he's bringing them back from a wrongful death and making a way that mutants are actually and genuinely allowed to live when the world has shown time and again that it hates them and doesn't want them around, and will do so many more things to get to a point that mutants just... aren't here anymore. I'll give you that his whole thing with the Krakoan drugs is a little seedy in the way he wants to roll them out and use them but there's nothing wrong with the Resurrection Protocols.

Says you. They’re injecting mutant DNA from Mr. Sinister’s DNA collection into eggs and using the Five’s powers to clone and hatch adult mutants. Do you regard that as a natural birth or “resurrection?” I regard it as a means of mass production of mutants. How isn’t it mass producing mutants? They hatched an entire team of X-Men in a single evening. That’s not mass production? It’s definitely not natural. They even have talked about how many the Five can hatch in a day in one of Hickman’s books. It’s mass production of mutants. Again, anyone else here remember what Shaw’s and the Hellfire Club’s evil plans were back around #132? Like I said, those are Xavier’s plans now.

And I think you entirely misunderstood the concept of Arakko and Amenth. It's true that Amenth is considered a hell dimension that's filled with demons, but Arakko itself didn't have any demons on it despite the fact that it was there. The Krakoans didn't bring any demons into this world beyond the ones that were already here.

No, you misunderstand X of Swords. They very specifically stated the residents of Arakko and Amenth were no longer just mutants, but were instead mutant-demon hybrids. Remember how Sinister wanted that DNA? The Summoners are an example of this. A half-demon is still a demon, especially when they hate humans as the residents of Arakko do.

BTW, did anyone else notice the strong resemblance between X of Sword’s Annihilation and Jack Kirby’s Morgaine Le Fey from DC Comics the Demon?

[Omega Alpha]

Remember though, Wanda didn’t actually commit a genocide. Hickman’s recounting of “no more mutants” conveniently leaves out that Wanda depowered mutants, not murdered them.

Depowering mutants means immediate death to anyone using them and needing them to stay alive while doing so (for example, someone flying), as well as of mutants that became a target now that they couldn't protect themselves anymore. It can also mean unemployment or starvation for anyone whose livelihood depended on them. Not to mention the obvious psychological effects that can come from it, and also can lead to death.

Says you. They’re injecting mutant DNA from Mr. Sinister’s DNA collection into eggs and using the Five’s powers to clone and hatch adult mutants. Do you regard that as a natural birth or “resurrection?” I regard it as a means of mass production of mutants. How isn’t it mass producing mutants? They hatched an entire team of X-Men in a single evening. That’s not mass production? It’s definitely not natural. They even have talked about how many the Five can hatch in a day in one of Hickman’s books. It’s mass production of mutants. Again, anyone else here remember what Shaw’s and the Hellfire Club’s evil plans were back around #132? Like I said, those are Xavier’s plans now.

There's nothing "natural" about surviving a disease due to a mass produced drug synthesized in a lab and made in a factory, or having your hand re-attached surgically after you lost it, or taking a machine made of metal that uses a fuel based on kerosene and fly across the sky to reach another continent in hours...or going to a message board in the Internet to discuss a comic book about people with superpowers.

And there is no "mass production". They're not making new mutants up- they are the same people, and there's really no argument more serious than saying I'm not the same person I was when I was 5 years old, because there isn't a single cell from my body then that wasn't replaced, or that anyone that teleports essentially commits suicide and doesn't have a soul anymore.

[Brian B]

Depowering mutants means immediate death to anyone using them and needing them to stay alive while doing so (for example, someone flying), as well as of mutants that became a target now that they couldn't protect themselves anymore. It can also mean unemployment or starvation for anyone whose livelihood depended on them. Not to mention the obvious psychological effects that can come from it, and also can lead to death.



There's nothing "natural" about surviving a disease due to a mass produced drug synthesized in a lab and made in a factory, or having your hand re-attached surgically after you lost it, or taking a machine made of metal that uses a fuel based on kerosene and fly across the sky to reach another continent in hours...or going to a message board in the Internet to discuss a comic book about people with superpowers.

And there is no "mass production". They're not making new mutants up- they are the same people, and there's really no argument more serious than saying I'm not the same person I was when I was 5 years old, because there isn't a single cell from my body then that wasn't replaced, or that anyone that teleports essentially commits suicide and doesn't have a soul anymore.

Depowering is not genocide. Period. You assume that “no more mutants” means mutants who could fly suddenly fell out of the sky. That is not what was depicted. A mutant, the Scarlet Witch, decided to depower most of mutantkind. That is the whole of what she did, not genocide.

As for Xavier mass producing mutants, I am not claiming drugs and prosthetics, or airplanes, are natural. No, they are in general mass-produced marvels of science and medicine.

What Xavier is doing is mass producing mutants. It’s undeniable. Xavier hatched a team of adult X-Men, including some of the most powerful and experienced mutant fighters among themselves, in a single evening. And they were dead. He cloned and hatched ‘em, like a Hatchimal. They still had time that night to go party after the hatching. There is zero difference between the Hellfire Club’s plans in X-Men #132 and what Xavier is doing right now. They’re even going to throw a Hellfire Gala for goodness’ sake! I remember “Wolverine, Alone!” The X-Men didn’t go to Hellfire Club Galas to party and show off their fashions. They came to Hellfire Club Galas to kick a$$!! Those were the days! Xavier’s scale of mutant mass production maybe dwarfs what Shaw and Emma were thinking of back then. A whole team of X-Men hatched in a night! Wow. You can excuse it, as many readers and fans are doing. I see it as incongruous with Xavier’s and the X-Men’s previously stated goals.

You can love the Hickman run. I don’t so far. I have come here... not to praise Hickman...But I’ll keep reading for a while.

[CosmiComic]

I don't think this necessarily counts as genocide. It was wrong, but genocide is a real-world phenomenon, and idk if it's necessarily right to compare the two.

[scouse mouse]

I've thought about the situation with Carol and all the close human allies and friends of the mutants in this new age. All these bonds seem to have been pushed aside and I think it would be interesting to see how some of these relationships are working out now. Where is Briar Raleigh? Beast's best friend is Wonder man yet he is no where to be seen; or Domino and Diamondback.

[jwatson]

Didn't the dude Magma was flying with fall into a volcano and die when he lost his powers on M day? No horse in the race but it was shown in various books mutants dying from the lost of their powers, some were fliers.

[Brian B]

Didn't the dude Magma was flying with fall into a volcano and die when he lost his powers on M day? No horse in the race but it was shown in various books mutants dying from the lost of their powers, some were fliers.

I did not see that issue. Which titles and issue? It wasn’t shown that way in House of M. Even with that, which would be horrible, it would still not be a genocide. Mass murder, but not genocide.

[Brian B]

I don't think this necessarily counts as genocide. It was wrong, but genocide is a real-world phenomenon, and idk if it's necessarily right to compare the two.

I cannot disagree with you. That’s also why it was horrible to have Grant Morrison depict a fictional genocide in X-Men.

I will give Hickman this — he has 58 years of craziness to try to make sense of, including what I think of as horrible runs like Morrison’s X-Men.

BTW, I don’t hate everything Hickman has done. I love Hickman’s “Nimrod the Lesser,” “Nimrod the Greater,” and Mr. Sinister, although I think he gives credit to another writer for the current depiction of Sinister.