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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think it's funny in general how everyone cites how badly Cheetah was disrespected in the Bat books as evidence that she gets no love, but Cheetah got the upper hand on Superman a few times AND completely owned Flash in New 52. I mean, in battle, what's the difference between Flash and Cheetah? She was essentially Flash plus (in Lex Luthor Super Friends voice) razor-sharp claws. And when she got caught in the end, didn't she get caught on purpose?
    it was even a more high profile book than the Bat-appearances. Like what's gonna attract more readers, a Catwoman book or a JL book written by Geoff Johns at that time?

    yes she got caught on purpose to set up a team up with Black Manta as part of the larger Trinity War plot. Then it just...never materialized.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think it's funny in general how everyone cites how badly Cheetah was disrespected in the Bat books as evidence that she gets no love, but Cheetah got the upper hand on Superman a few times AND completely owned Flash in New 52. I mean, in battle, what's the difference between Flash and Cheetah? She was essentially Flash plus (in Lex Luthor Super Friends voice) razor-sharp claws. And when she got caught in the end, didn't she get caught on purpose?
    It isn't just the Bat-books but her many, many, many animated appearances. I think she's had ~24 animated appearances at this point (some of those are short scene where she's just sort of standing there, TBH). Most of the problem comes from the direct-to-video movies and JL animated series. Even in Wonder Woman: Bloodlines she had to take steroids to be equal to Wonder Woman... I don't think her highlights in a niche medium like comics can equal that out.

    I won't say they're all terrible though, she was good in Justice League: Doom, she split a ship's mast in half with the air pressure of her attack.

    And she does good in video games. And she has been treaded much better since Rebirth in terms of the jobbing frequency so I will say I appreciate the turn-around of her character in that respect.


    But back to Superman, plenty of characters have beaten him, it's more a question of how many he hasn't beaten back in their rematch. It's the reason I brought up Cheetah, because that's one of the few encounters he's consistently lost too.

    Is their any character he's never been able to beat back in a rematch?

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    It isn't just the Bat-books but her many, many, many animated appearances. I think she's had ~24 animated appearances at this point (some of those are short scene where she's just sort of standing there, TBH). Most of the problem comes from the direct-to-video movies and JL animated series. Even in Wonder Woman: Bloodlines she had to take steroids to be equal to Wonder Woman... I don't think her highlights in a niche medium like comics can equal that out.

    I won't say they're all terrible though, she was good in Justice League: Doom, she split a ship's mast in half with the air pressure of her attack.

    And she does good in video games. And she has been treaded much better since Rebirth in terms of the jobbing frequency so I will say I appreciate the turn-around of her character in that respect.


    But back to Superman, plenty of characters have beaten him, it's more a question of how many he hasn't beaten back in their rematch. It's the reason I brought up Cheetah, because that's one of the few encounters he's consistently lost too.

    Is their any character he's never been able to beat back in a rematch?
    Are you counting Cheetah's Super Friends appearances? Also, can someone verify that the VA for Cheetah in those episodes tried to affect her delivery to sound like Eartha Kitt's performances as Catwoman, namely overemphasize "purrrrr"?

    As for Supes, I think as Black Adam's magic angle gets played up, Superman's not going to fare well against him. They don't square off often, though, but unless they get some diva to play Superman, it's going to get ugly for him if he goes up against Dwayne Johnson on the big screen.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 04-22-2021 at 12:03 PM.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Are you counting Cheetah's Super Friends appearances?
    I was not, because I forgot about that show.

    (For clarification, I was counting her characterization across the animated adaptations she's been in, not the number of episodes of a given tv show she's been in.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    As for Supes, I think as Black Adam's magic angle gets played up, Superman's not going to fare well against him. They don't square off often, though, but unless they get some diva to play Superman, it's going to get ugly for him if he goes up against Dwayne Johnson on the big screen.
    Man, I hope we are still going to get to see them fight on the big screen. Who knows at this point with the WB fiasco going on.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I was not, because I forgot about that show.

    (For clarification, I was counting her characterization across the animated adaptations she's been in, not the number of episodes of a given tv show she's been in.)
    I see. I guess I'm a little surprised because 24 seems like a lot. If you arbitrarily choose the Timm/Dini/Burnett/Tucker/etc. DCAU era as the "modern era" of animated DC stuff, have there been that many animated projects? Or perhaps more accurately, have there been that many animated productions I simply haven't seen? I used to be up-to-date on all of these animations, but it appears I'm just missing out on a lot of them...

  6. #66
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I see. I guess I'm a little surprised because 24 seems like a lot. If you arbitrarily choose the Timm/Dini/Burnett/Tucker/etc. DCAU era as the "modern era" of animated DC stuff, have there been that many animated projects? Or perhaps more accurately, have there been that many animated productions I simply haven't seen? I used to be up-to-date on all of these animations, but it appears I'm just missing out on a lot of them...
    She's been in 5 animated series (if you count JL and JL: U as one), 3 animated shorts, 13 animated movies (3 of them are from the DC animated movie universe that Bloodlines is technically a part of even though she looks way different). So I guess it's 21, I pulled 24 as an approximation, half of them are non-speaking rolls too.

    It's cuz a lot of those movies are team movies, so they default to Cheetah as the WW villain. Her appearances are still dwarfed by other Batman and Superman rouges, but considering WW only has 2 animated movies and no solo tv shows it's crazy they've got that many versions in.

    -

    Superman fought a goddess from his homeworld too. I can't remember how the fight ended, I think he lost though?


  7. #67
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    Superman is weaker than all the cosmic beings without amplifications like a lot of sun dipping, but he should almost always win against Batman, and plot armor is typically the reason if he don't wins.
    Last edited by Rightoya; 04-22-2021 at 05:26 PM.

  8. #68
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Superman is weaker than all the cosmic beings without amplifications like a lot of sun dipping, but he should almost always win against Batman, and plot armor is typically the reason if he don't wins.
    But (mostly) everyone else is too. Cosmic beings (rightly) tend to be powerhouses.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Isn't (mostly) everyone?
    Yeah, but the cosmic beings inside the universe would still count for the question.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    She's been in 5 animated series (if you count JL and JL: U as one), 3 animated shorts, 13 animated movies (3 of them are from the DC animated movie universe that Bloodlines is technically a part of even though she looks way different). So I guess it's 21, I pulled 24 as an approximation, half of them are non-speaking rolls too.

    It's cuz a lot of those movies are team movies, so they default to Cheetah as the WW villain. Her appearances are still dwarfed by other Batman and Superman rouges, but considering WW only has 2 animated movies and no solo tv shows it's crazy they've got that many versions in.

    -

    Superman fought a goddess from his homeworld too. I can't remember how the fight ended, I think he lost though?

    That is the Kryptonian goddess of Ice Cythonna, and Superman won at the end of the issue, but just with the help of Lois in a robot suit and at the sun which not just made him stronger but also Cythonna weaker.

  11. #71
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Yeah, but the cosmic beings inside the universe would still count for the question.
    Granted, however, I meant most powerful superhero which I assume is how most people read the question. But, technically, yes, they would be stronger.
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  12. #72
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    Why do ppl bring up cosmic beings when they already know they are more powerful. Is it to prove a point or being petty? If you talk about superheroes most are talking about those on earth or atleast earth level.

    And superman is top dog with them. Yes many characters have his # for different reasons, but OVERALL he is still the top of the mountain
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  13. #73
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperX View Post
    Why do ppl bring up cosmic beings when they already know they are more powerful. Is it to prove a point or being petty? If you talk about superheroes most are talking about those on earth or atleast earth level.

    And superman is top dog with them. Yes many characters have his # for different reasons, but OVERALL he is still the top of the mountain
    I think some people do it to show how "clever" they are by catching others in what they perceive as a technicality. The same thing happens in Manga. With Dragon Ball a fighting-centric series when I once brought up Broly is the strongest in the main universe featured somebody bit my head off "no, he isn't. What about Beerus the God of Destruction and Whis his Angel attendant". I had to amend my statement to "strongest mortal" even though these cosmic characters are typically forbidden from fighting mortals thus rendering the person's point moot.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-22-2021 at 07:15 PM.
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  14. #74
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperX View Post
    Why do ppl bring up cosmic beings when they already know they are more powerful. Is it to prove a point or being petty? If you talk about superheroes most are talking about those on earth or atleast earth level.

    And superman is top dog with them. Yes many characters have his # for different reasons, but OVERALL he is still the top of the mountain
    Probably because the Justice League members are often referred to as "gods".

    And don't DC gods tend to typically be earth level? I feel like I haven't seen them to too many things that Superman can't in terms of strength/speed etc.

    I'm not pulling up the Anti-monitor, Perpetua or even the Specter, ones that are definitely cosmic level.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-23-2021 at 01:43 AM.

  15. #75
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    But was it the writers intention to being Doomsday back when he wrote him or editorial force him? Chris Clermont also brought Jean Grey back due to editorial mandate despite it being his full intention that she say dead after The Dark Phoenix saga.
    I think the character came back because Jurgens was keen on exploring the origin, but I'm not sure. Almost nothing we know about Doomsday came from the Death story.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post

    Is their any character he's never been able to beat back in a rematch?
    I think it was safe to bet on Vartox in might, but not problem solving. Overall I think the worst would just be another version of himself lol. Or a Kryptonian from a different universe.
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