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  1. #16
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Keep in mind - I LOVE the practical effects of tokusatsu series. I just don't think everyone responsible for these series is in as love with cheaper practical effects that we are, and if they had the budget for it they'd probably use more CGI than suitmation.

  2. #17
    Mighty Member Angilasman's Avatar
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    The best tokusatsu effects in modern Ultra shows are by director Kiyotaka Taguchi. He's the real innovator bringing classical practical effects with all sorts of new twists, including blending practical and digital. He's famous for these showoffy sequences, long takes where human-sized opponents fight the foreground and Ultraman a kaiju fight in the background. Awesome stuff!

    He's the main director for Ultraman X, Orb, and last year's Z, but he does a few episodes for most series.

    Koichi Sakamoto is gonna be main director for Trigger. His forte is more flashy martial arts (he was a Power Rangers and sentai director) but he's gotten better with the tokusatsu effects.
    Last edited by Angilasman; 04-20-2021 at 05:18 PM.

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Keep in mind - I LOVE the practical effects of tokusatsu series. I just don't think everyone responsible for these series is in as love with cheaper practical effects that we are, and if they had the budget for it they'd probably use more CGI than suitmation.
    I think it depends in certain respects.

    Like, modern Toku does use a lot more CG, like for Finishers, but it still mostly comes down to suit fighting and practical effects/items.

    I remember the season of Garo, a dark action Toku, where the suits and Horrors were all CG and fans complained.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Angilasman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That not really right though - they're not "sticking" with rubber suits, they're "stuck" with rubber suits - they don't have a choice in the matter, CGI is too expensive to do creature/robot effects outside of film. Basically you're happy that they don't have a really good budget.
    Honestly, I don't care. Jurassic Park came out when I was 5, so realistic CGI has been a thing for as long as I can remember, and while I certainly love a lot of digital effects and many are incredibly beautiful and I know that the possibilities of digital really make a lot of previously impossible things possible... but I've always gravitated towards old-school, practical effects in terms of sheer enjoyment. I love miniatures, monster costumes, stop-motion creatures, matte paintings, makeup effects, and puppets. I've always thought those types of things look so cool. I never saw them as fake or unrealistic, but stylized. When I watched the original King Kong as a kid I didn't think the effects where are antiquated, I thought, even as an unsophisticated kid; "ah, this film is made in a different style!"

    Ray Harryhausen once said that if you make an effect too realistic you bring it down to the level of the mundane. In Bong Joon Ho's film Parasite the main setting, the house, is a digital effect. It's seamless, and it makes sense in the context of this dramatic film that the digital effect be absolutely seamless and realistic. Now, when you're dealing with a fantasy character like Mothra or Ultraman why is it necessary to adhere to realism? That's just how I approach things in my mind.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    You're right and wrong - I was remissed to say "for kids" - there are indeed plenty of darker toku series for older audiences. But I still contend that I'm correct that the rubber suits is less because "toku" and more because of "budget." If they had CW DC budgets they'd make their own takes on CG Gorilla Grodds and King Sharks.
    But not even The Flash can use Grodd or King Shark multiple times and they have to have Ultraman fight a Kaiju every episode. And the design for Ultra Kaiju are pretty inricate and detailed compared to the Grodd and King Shark model.
    Shin still used no suit despite one having been made, and GDT is a fan with a budget - and Pac Rim's creatures did not look like a rubbery suit.
    The Kaiju in Pacific Rim honestly felt like more toned down versions of Ultra Kaiju.

  6. #21
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angilasman View Post
    The best tokusatsu effects in modern Ultra shows are by director Kiyotaka Taguchi. He's the real innovator bringing classical practical effects with all sorts of new twists, including blending practical and digital. He's famous for these showoffy sequences, long takes where human-sized opponents fight the foreground and Ultraman a kaiju fight in the background. Awesome stuff!

    He's the main director for Ultraman X, Orb, and last year's Z, but he does a few episodes for most series.

    Koichi Sakamoto is gonna be main director for Trigger. His forte is more flashy martial arts (he was a Power Rangers and sentai director) but he's gotten better with the tokusatsu effects.
    I did like Orb, really need to watch my discs for X...
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it depends in certain respects.

    Like, modern Toku does use a lot more CG, like for Finishers, but it still mostly comes down to suit fighting and practical effects/items.
    Yeah, but that's clearly easier and cheaper to do and still have it look good on screen compared to doing the creatures and mechs in CG.
    I remember the season of Garo, a dark action Toku, where the suits and Horrors were all CG and fans complained.
    Which I think is the only hope guys in suits toku really has, traditional fans. And even then the obvious question is, is the portion of the fandom complaining about too much CG representative of a majority, or is it just a small vocal minority of us die hard yet niche fans?
    Quote Originally Posted by Angilasman View Post
    Honestly, I don't care. Jurassic Park came out when I was 5, so realistic CGI has been a thing for as long as I can remember, and while I certainly love a lot of digital effects and many are incredibly beautiful and I know that the possibilities of digital really make a lot of previously impossible things possible... but I've always gravitated towards old-school, practical effects in terms of sheer enjoyment. I love miniatures, monster costumes, stop-motion creatures, matte paintings, makeup effects, and puppets. I've always thought those types of things look so cool. I never saw them as fake or unrealistic, but stylized. When I watched the original King Kong as a kid I didn't think the effects where are antiquated, I thought, even as an unsophisticated kid; "ah, this film is made in a different style!"

    Ray Harryhausen once said that if you make an effect too realistic you bring it down to the level of the mundane. In Bong Joon Ho's film Parasite the main setting, the house, is a digital effect. It's seamless, and it makes sense in the context of this dramatic film that the digital effect be absolutely seamless and realistic. Now, when you're dealing with a fantasy character like Mothra or Ultraman why is it necessary to adhere to realism? That's just how I approach things in my mind.
    Same here. I also gravitate towards a lot of more practical stuff. But like you I grew up as CG largely replaced the practical here in the west. It doesn't seem like a stretch to think the same process that happened here might be happening in Japan. They're already replacing guys in suits in their bigger budget pictures. As the cost of CG comes down further, their television could go the same route.

    The original JP actually used a lot of practical effects work. The more recent sequels, less.

  7. #22
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But not even The Flash can use Grodd or King Shark multiple times and they have to have Ultraman fight a Kaiju every episode. And the design for Ultra Kaiju are pretty inricate and detailed compared to the Grodd and King Shark model.
    Which is luckily why the next decade or two of Ultra shows will still mostly be guys in suits. Even for American productions there's not enough budget for CGI creatures every episode (and even when you get a CG creature it's only for half a minute like the T-Rex in tonight's rerun of the Flash). But that's where we are now. 20 or 30 years from now when I'm in my 50s/60s but still watching these sorts of shows because I'm never gonna stop? The tech that makes these images grows exponentially,
    The Kaiju in Pacific Rim honestly felt like more toned down versions of Ultra Kaiju.
    They might felt like it, but they were still crazy expensive CGI giant critters.

  8. #23
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    I'm looking forward to this. I know nothing about Tiga, I've only been on the Ultra bandwagon for a couple years. But I loved Z and Geed (which I just finished the other night). Think maybe going to try Orb next while I wait for Trigger to start. Hopefully we get the simulcast like they did with Z on Youtube.

  9. #24
    the devil's reject choptop's Avatar
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    What ULTRAMAN show was on Fox kids back in the day? That's the only one I've seen and I thought it was pretty good.

  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah, but that's clearly easier and cheaper to do and still have it look good on screen compared to doing the creatures and mechs in CG.
    I mean, I still expect future shows or other films to still use suits for the Kaiju and Mechs for Sentai and Ultraman, so from an overall standpoint that seems like a fixture.
    Which I think is the only hope guys in suits toku really has, traditional fans. And even then the obvious question is, is the portion of the fandom complaining about too much CG representative of a majority, or is it just a small vocal minority of us die hard yet niche fans?
    I don't think just tradition but also feasability and practicality.

    Not everything needs to be CG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Which is luckily why the next decade or two of Ultra shows will still mostly be guys in suits. Even for American productions there's not enough budget for CGI creatures every episode (and even when you get a CG creature it's only for half a minute like the T-Rex in tonight's rerun of the Flash). But that's where we are now. 20 or 30 years from now when I'm in my 50s/60s but still watching these sorts of shows because I'm never gonna stop? The tech that makes these images grows exponentially,
    True, but I feel like the feasability of stunts and suit actors will still prove just as viable.
    They might felt like it, but they were still crazy expensive CGI giant critters.
    Yeah, but the Ultra shows also do some crazy elaborate Kaiju designs out of suits.

  11. #26
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I still expect future shows or other films to still use suits for the Kaiju and Mechs for Sentai and Ultraman, so from an overall standpoint that seems like a fixture.
    I agree, but only because that "fixture" is fixed in place by budget, for the long forseeable future. It's only a fixture because they have no choice in the matter, their funds for a season are just too limited for it to be otherwise.
    I don't think just tradition but also feasability and practicality.
    Exactly what I've been arguing! The feasability and practicality is all dollars and cents (or rather, yen).
    Not everything needs to be CG.
    I never said it needs to be. Remember, I like practical effects. My point has only been that those in charge of making these tokusatsu shows may disagree with us, the powers that be may think that yes indeed everything needs to be CG, but their barred from going that route only because they literally can't afford it. We can't assume that things are the way they are because they agree with us - they may only be forced to continue in the practical style we like because they can't pony up that kind of cash on a TV budget. Otherwise they may go the route their nation's films are going, which is favoring more and more computer effects over practical.
    True, but I feel like the feasability of stunts and suit actors will still prove just as viable.
    Yes, and no. If the CGI ever lowers enough that they could go all digital? Those stunts and suit actors may only be viewed as viable as mocap suit actors, just like they are here in America. Unless/until the CG becomes cheap enough to do on such a tight budget, we'll never know and can't just assume things with practical effects will survive like we want it to. It's an unknown. But the bigger films do suggest a trend towards it going much like it has here - those in charge often going for CG over practical.
    Yeah, but the Ultra shows also do some crazy elaborate Kaiju designs out of suits.
    Never said they didn't - don't see how it matters. The Ultra shows might do some elaborate suit designs, that might have inspired Del Toro for Pac Rim, but Pac Rim was still a pure CGI-fest with the kaiju and mechas.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member Angilasman's Avatar
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    Same here. I also gravitate towards a lot of more practical stuff. But like you I grew up as CG largely replaced the practical here in the west. It doesn't seem like a stretch to think the same process that happened here might be happening in Japan. They're already replacing guys in suits in their bigger budget pictures. As the cost of CG comes down further, their television could go the same route.
    I actually feel like the opposite is happening. I'm seeing folks younger than me gravitate towards stuff I figured they were too young to even be nostalgic about. VHS nostalgia? How can someone 20 years old even have that?!

    Already, smaller, indie sci-fi and horror films are beginning to go deliberately retro with old school practical effects baked in as part of the selling points of the film! I feel as mainstream productions go further and further into digital that folks operating in the periphery are going to champion analog even further to differentiate. Some of the cleverest practical effects work ever captured on camera is being done today by artists who are doing it on their own time and putting their stuff up for free on their social media. It's an exciting time!

  13. #28
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angilasman View Post
    I actually feel like the opposite is happening. I'm seeing folks younger than me gravitate towards stuff I figured they were too young to even be nostalgic about. VHS nostalgia? How can someone 20 years old even have that?!
    That's not really any different from audiophiles who still prefer to collect vinyl - a weird, passionate niche group minority, with some added extra nerd appeal/cred. These people probably don't reflect the major general audience.

    Already, smaller, indie sci-fi and horror films are beginning to go deliberately retro with old school practical effects baked in as part of the selling points of the film! I feel as mainstream productions go further and further into digital that folks operating in the periphery are going to champion analog even further to differentiate. Some of the cleverest practical effects work ever captured on camera is being done today by artists who are doing it on their own time and putting their stuff up for free on their social media. It's an exciting time!
    Again, smaller, indie, operating in the periphery, trying to differentiate. That's where practical effects are in America. It's not going more mainstream, it's finding refuge outside of it. If practical effects follow this model in Japan, that means suits will be for their smaller indie movies trying to be different and target a smaller yet still profitable niche audience. So Godzilla won't, Gamera wouldn't, Mothra won't, but say a Reigo or a Raiga would go practical.

    And this is coming from someone who recently bought the very practical Psycho Goreman week before last. I love the more crazy fun indie stuff. But, I know it's a niche market.

  14. #29
    Mighty Member Angilasman's Avatar
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    What I'm trying to say is: ten years ago I felt all this stuff would be lost, now I'm confident there'll be folks to carry the torch.

  15. #30
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    oh boy , another ultraman english dubbed seres to look foward to then..


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