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  1. #91
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    If you believe Marvel would allow Otto to remain a reformed anti-hero moving forward, then I have a bridge to sell you. He was always going to go back to his more recognizable self. He is one of the great villains. We still don't know if he is full on villain again yet. His actions from Iron Man 500 and Amazing 600 up to Superior were fueled by his dying body and slight brain damage. As he is now, he is cured of all that. Still, he does have one of Kindred's centipedes (ceti eel?) In him. So even if he is, it can be waved away later as being the result of that.

    Otto going back to status quo wasn't a matter of "if", but "when". Now the way they achieved that is up to personal debate. I do feel using Mephisto yet again was just a cop out. Plain old lazy.
    Another reason why I prefer Manga over American Comic Books is that character development is seldomly rolled back so drastically or in such a hamfisted manner. I truly feel this outdated mindset is one of the reasons Manga sales have outpaced American Comic Book sales by such a large margin in recent years. Your average consumer craves more sophisticated storytelling these days.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-22-2021 at 08:37 AM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #92
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think the revert back to Doc Ock could've been handled better, and definitely seemed forced, but I'm also in the camp that no matter how hard Otto was trying as SpOck, he was still basically a terrible person who needed to face the consequences of his actions and didn't need a "get out of jail free card to be a Superhero because he's 'not that bad a guy'."

    So that's my take on it.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    If you believe Marvel would allow Otto to remain a reformed anti-hero moving forward, then I have a bridge to sell you. He was always going to go back to his more recognizable self. He is one of the great villains. We still don't know if he is full on villain again yet. His actions from Iron Man 500 and Amazing 600 up to Superior were fueled by his dying body and slight brain damage. As he is now, he is cured of all that. Still, he does have one of Kindred's centipedes (ceti eel?) In him. So even if he is, it can be waved away later as being the result of that.

    Otto going back to status quo wasn't a matter of "if", but "when". Now the way they achieved that is up to personal debate. I do feel using Mephisto yet again was just a cop out. Plain old lazy.
    I happen to agree with you. I have seen where Marvel has overused Norman and Victor Von Doom and those two are great characters. Mephisto is not even that. I wish they would get rid of all of the deals and take Mephisto out of Marvel for about 5 years and then only use him where he belongs: In Dr. Strange.

  4. #94
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Solicits just hit and not much else was revealed.The one interesting thing was all these mini-events(Hunted,Syndicate,Tablets,Sins rising,Last remains,King's ransom,Chameleon conspiracy,Sinister war and the entire run in general)have or are said to take a major toll on Peter.Spencer is breaking him down and I can't help but feel like we are going into back in black era and I am so excited for it.Thoughts?
    Also 70 cover hasn't been revealed.No idea why,maybe a spoiler?
    the editors on this book are taking a major toll on me and breaking me down
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  5. #95
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    Doctor Doom is probably the second nemesis Spider-man has. In fact, there are some periods where he has been more important than the Green Goblin.
    So yeah, they were never going to keep him being good, he isn't Venom.

    Also, someone mentioned Manga earlier and comparing it to American comic sales, the reason why Manga generally sells better is because of availability, price and bubble. Manga is usually cheaper, easier to buy and you know how to get into it, just read volume 1 and you're at most going to read about 10-20 years worth of manga (unless your One Piece).
    Comics have a 60-80 year history, and just getting into Spider-man requires so much to read beforehand that it can be considered homework.

    Like if I told you that a Wolverine and Spider-man one-shot was important to the saga of the Hobgoblin, a story that run for over 2 years (with a retcon later), you'll just give up on that.

    There's also the fact that some great stuff hasn't been reprinted like some of the spectacular Spider-man issues.
    There's a lot to look into it, it's not just retcons, but retcons are a symptom of it

  6. #96
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
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    The wording on the solicitations about wearing Peter/Spider-Man down reminds me of the Gauntlet and Grim Hunt stories.

  7. #97
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I happen to agree with you. I have seen where Marvel has overused Norman and Victor Von Doom and those two are great characters. Mephisto is not even that. I wish they would get rid of all of the deals and take Mephisto out of Marvel for about 5 years and then only use him where he belongs: In Dr. Strange.
    It is a mean-spirited inside joke at the expense of us "toxic" long-term fans for our "constant whining" about OMD; that's how it started at least now it has seemingly become a habit. I have this on good authority from people in the Industry off the record so I can't (out of respect as a couple of them are good friends) name any names.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-22-2021 at 12:50 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    It is a mean-spirited inside joke at the expense of us "toxic" long-term fans for our "constant whining" about OMD; that's how it started at least now it has seemingly become a habit. I have this on good authority from people in the Industry off the record so I can't (out of respect as a couple of them are good friends) name any names.
    It would not shock me if that was true ( I remember Dan Slott’s comments to readers here), and I also know the quote “Any publicity even bad publicity is better then no publicity.” ( Ronald Reagan). I also know Marvel has had a ball with OMD. But they forget “Cancel Culture” allows the rest of us to say no to something we may not agree with. I got angry over the Slott run and did the only acceptable thing I could do: Stop reading. I guarantee if OMD is not erased, I am leaving and not coming back. As for Mephisto: The perfect way to handle him is for Peter to go to Hell and kick his ass ( like he did with Fisk in prison) and he never pops up in Peter’s life again.

  9. #99
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, Otto as SpOck found out Toomes was using kids and then SpOck beat him within an inch of his life.
    hmmmm thats fair although toomes wouldnt have know that it was otto
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

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  10. #100
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    Doctor Doom is probably the second nemesis Spider-man has. In fact, there are some periods where he has been more important than the Green Goblin.
    So yeah, they were never going to keep him being good, he isn't Venom.

    Also, someone mentioned Manga earlier and comparing it to American comic sales, the reason why Manga generally sells better is because of availability, price and bubble. Manga is usually cheaper, easier to buy and you know how to get into it, just read volume 1 and you're at most going to read about 10-20 years worth of manga (unless your One Piece).
    Comics have a 60-80 year history, and just getting into Spider-man requires so much to read beforehand that it can be considered homework.

    Like if I told you that a Wolverine and Spider-man one-shot was important to the saga of the Hobgoblin, a story that run for over 2 years (with a retcon later), you'll just give up on that.

    There's also the fact that some great stuff hasn't been reprinted like some of the spectacular Spider-man issues.
    There's a lot to look into it, it's not just retcons, but retcons are a symptom of it
    i agree especially when trying to read the stories chronologically. when entering the black suit saga I gave up cause I needed to get the third series that spiderman was on
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  11. #101
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    It would not shock me if that was true ( I remember Dan Slott’s comments to readers here), and I also know the quote “Any publicity even bad publicity is better then no publicity.” ( Ronald Reagan). I also know Marvel has had a ball with OMD. But they forget “Cancel Culture” allows the rest of us to say no to something we may not agree with. I got angry over the Slott run and did the only acceptable thing I could do: Stop reading. I guarantee if OMD is not erased, I am leaving and not coming back. As for Mephisto: The perfect way to handle him is for Peter to go to Hell and kick his ass ( like he did with Fisk in prison) and he never pops up in Peter’s life again.
    That would be a perfect conclusion, honestly.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #102
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    If you believe Marvel would allow Otto to remain a reformed anti-hero moving forward, then I have a bridge to sell you. He was always going to go back to his more recognizable self. He is one of the great villains. We still don't know if he is full on villain again yet. His actions from Iron Man 500 and Amazing 600 up to Superior were fueled by his dying body and slight brain damage. As he is now, he is cured of all that. Still, he does have one of Kindred's centipedes (ceti eel?) In him. So even if he is, it can be waved away later as being the result of that.

    Otto going back to status quo wasn't a matter of "if", but "when". Now the way they achieved that is up to personal debate. I do feel using Mephisto yet again was just a cop out. Plain old lazy.
    Venom.

    If you seriously believe that then you have to believe that it's only a matter of time before Venom goes back to the way he was, despite all of his massive character development.

    Or Jonah. After what is a complete overhaul of their relationship, it's only a matter of time before he goes back to his "THAT WEBBED MENANCE!" mentality.

    And there is the problem in comics nowadays. If everything is going to eventually go back the way it was then why even bother?

  13. #103
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That would be a perfect conclusion, honestly.
    Agreed but sadly there is one glaring problem preventing this from ever happening the mindset of Marvel Editorial - OMD is not an end in and of itself rather it is a means to an end a narrative tool to achieve a desirable (yuck) result for those in power.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #104
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    Venom.

    If you seriously believe that then you have to believe that it's only a matter of time before Venom goes back to the way he was, despite all of his massive character development.

    Or Jonah. After what is a complete overhaul of their relationship, it's only a matter of time before he goes back to his "THAT WEBBED MENANCE!" mentality.

    And there is the problem in comics nowadays. If everything is going to eventually go back the way it was then why even bother?
    Bingo, bingo, bingo, this right here is the reason I can't become emotionally invested as a reader with any developments to 616 Peter Parker beyond a dissatisfied meh. Marvel Editorial tipped their hand showing that Peter will NEVER be allowed to progress beyond a certain narrative point. His boundaries moving forward or rather running in place are clearly established. Take this for example; this is why IMO "Swinging Single Spider-Man" during BND & the Slott Era failed because we knew as readers none of the love interests mattered one lick Peter could never have a stable relationship with any of them. Suspension of disbelief is effectively impossible post-OMD. This is the lasting legacy of OMD to pull back the curtain so far everyone can see how the magic tricks are done thus destroying any true enjoyment of the act, and all in the name of "saving" the show which was never in any real danger to begin with.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-22-2021 at 04:13 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  15. #105
    Incredible Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    the editors on this book are taking a major toll on me and breaking me down
    Same lmao. I've said it before here but I stopped picking it up after Last Remains, I'm on one of my Spidey sabbaticals. I like Nick Spencer but the drawn out nature of these stories and the nonstop succession of events, point-whatever tie ins, giant expensive one-shots, and minis is past the point of reasonable commitment. It screams to me poor planning and now they're cramming everything in last minute to get out the door.

    I feel like I'd rather a new editor before a new writer right now lol. I will give Lowe this, he got Ryan Ottley over on Spidey and that was a big get- really enjoyed any time he was drawing the book!

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