A 'Sinister" Revelation in ASM 64?

[Huntsman Spider]

so does, Octavious have his normal, non-Peter-clone-body back, or is he still "superior octopus"?

I'm not interested in him trying to be a hero, nor am I interested in him having any of Peter's memories-- at all..

Thanks to the end of Superior Spider-Man v2, Otto is back to his classic self with no trace of Peter Parker's memories . . . though he has noticed something terribly amiss with his memory and is trying to figure out what/why that is, which provides the hook for Kindred to sink his claws into him.

I wasn't really sure where else to post this but I just thought it was interesting, "deleted" page from ASM 56 with Peter calling Matt in prison. https://www.comicartfans.com/Gallery...?Piece=1721750

That's a real shame. Would have loved to see Spidey and DD's rebuilt friendship acknowledged in ASM. At least with the sudden rush of positive publicity from the Threats and Menaces streaming suit, Peter can still help Matt a bit by denting "Mayor Fisk's" reputation.

[Frontier]

I do find it interesting that some people will say "Otto doesn't deserve redemption because he hurt Peter or he wanted to rape MJ" regardless of it such a story would be narratively interesting to view as a reader, or not. You'd think a person hurt one of their loved ones the way some people act so outraged. Some people are indeed very attached to these characters perhaps a little too attached.

Y'know, it probably won't happen, but I'd love to see MJ give Otto a good sock in the jaw for Superior if they ever met up again .

Or maybe Felicia will get some payback...

[Huntsman Spider]

Y'know, it probably won't happen, but I'd love to see MJ give Otto a good sock in the jaw for Superior if they ever met up again .

Or maybe Felicia will get some payback...

I'd like to see both, if at all possible.

[Spiderfan001]

Y'know, it probably won't happen, but I'd love to see MJ give Otto a good sock in the jaw for Superior if they ever met up again .

Or maybe Felicia will get some payback...

Yes please.maybe a tooth or a kick where the sun don't shine

[Aura Blaize]

He killed and tortured.He took over someones life and then tried to get with his girlfriend.When rejected by her defiled their memories together by rubbing one of(implied).And all this aside people forget that he only decided to do good when he got Peter's memories.He didn't redeem himself because it wasn't otto it was otto and pete mixed together.Our memories make us who we are and the fact that they mixed those memories up means there was no redemption.

And then Vol 2 happened. After trying to return to villainy, he honestly decided to be a hero on his own. He didn't hijack someone's body/life. He was trying to do it on his own this time. Toward the end he was developing a conscience and was actually lamenting not saving everyone. And with the whole world finding out who he was, they SERIOUSLY could have done something with that and kick his redemption into overdrive. Have him truly confront everything he did.

But no. Instead they did the Mephisto thing AGAIN because that worked SO FREAKING WELL the first time. And for what? Oh hey, Doc Ock vs Spider-Man. Again.

So....what was the point of it all? They told a story, showed what he's capable of and given him some development...more development than he's had in YEARS and then took it away. Because Marvel.

[Frontier]

And then Vol 2 happened. After trying to return to villainy, he honestly decided to be a hero on his own. He didn't hijack someone's body/life. He was trying to do it on his own this time. Toward the end he was developing a conscience and was actually lamenting not saving everyone. And with the whole world finding out who he was, they SERIOUSLY could have done something with that and kick his redemption into overdrive. Have him truly confront everything he did.

But no. Instead they did the Mephisto thing AGAIN because that worked SO FREAKING WELL the first time. And for what? Oh hey, Doc Ock vs Spider-Man. Again.

So....what was the point of it all? They told a story, showed what he's capable of and given him some development...more development than he's had in YEARS and then took it away. Because Marvel.

I get it. I enjoyed Gage's volumes as well.

But personally I have never bought into the Superior concept and found Ock wearing the Spider-Suit, and people's reaction to him, after everything he had done (as both Ock and SpOck) to be disingenuous.

[Celgress]

I get it. I enjoyed Gage's volumes as well.

But personally I have never bought into the Superior concept and found Ock wearing the Spider-Suit, and people's reaction to him, after everything he had done (as both Ock and SpOck) to be disingenuous.

I can assure you my reaction was and is far from "disingenuous" -

"not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

I legitimately enjoyed the story. In fact, it was the first time I EVER found Otto interesting in modern times outside of Spider-Man 2. Other than SM 2 Pre-Superior I found Otto to be nothing more than a cackling worn-out 2-D villain of little if any relevancy or interest.

[Spiderfan001]

And then Vol 2 happened. After trying to return to villainy, he honestly decided to be a hero on his own. He didn't hijack someone's body/life. He was trying to do it on his own this time. Toward the end he was developing a conscience and was actually lamenting not saving everyone. And with the whole world finding out who he was, they SERIOUSLY could have done something with that and kick his redemption into overdrive. Have him truly confront everything he did.

But no. Instead they did the Mephisto thing AGAIN because that worked SO FREAKING WELL the first time. And for what? Oh hey, Doc Ock vs Spider-Man. Again.

So....what was the point of it all? They told a story, showed what he's capable of and given him some development...more development than he's had in YEARS and then took it away. Because Marvel.

I liked vol 2(except the end) but for how bad superior was otto sacrifice felt natural.Giving up his control to save his kinda-sorta g.f. and the city.In the above post I was talking about volume 1 which was horrible.It made so many characters dumb and out of character and specially ruined MJ with that last panel.Took away so much spider-man content from us as well.
Otto isn't the only one who had development taken away from him.And when he came back he first attacked parker industries just FYI.
The point of it all was that even though the idea of an ock redemption story was good the execution was terrible.It had potential as seen in vol 2 but the bad outweighed the good as seen in volume 1

[Spiderfan001]

I get it. I enjoyed Gage's volumes as well.

But personally I have never bought into the Superior concept and found Ock wearing the Spider-Suit, and people's reaction to him, after everything he had done (as both Ock and SpOck) to be disingenuous.

Same here.The volume is good but it is a Super-villan who has attacked and destroyed so many lives who had a change of heart.You can't justify that sort of thing.I feel the same way about magneto killing thousands(and trying to kill much more) and then complaining about his holocaust background.Like you did something just as bad if not worse.Not saying that redemption isn't possible but it takes time and your crimes wont just be forgotten because you played hero under the moniker of an actual hero who has spent decades doing the good work.Vol 2 had the right idea still he should not wear the spider-suit.He has not earned it in any sense

[Spiderfan001]

I can assure you my reaction was and is far from "disingenuous" -

"not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

I legitimately enjoyed the story. In fact, it was the first time I EVER found Otto interesting in modern times outside of Spider-Man 2. Other than SM 2 Pre-Superior I found Otto to be nothing more than a cackling worn-out 2-D villain of little if any relevancy or interest.

I think he is talking about the people of the MU.
I see where you are coming from but I don't agree.
I once met a guy in comicvine that said that SP was a good story because he didn't llike gwen and found her boring and it did something good with her,
SSP is not on the same level of bad as SP but it lasted much longer and can't easily be ignored in canon.
My point is new and interesting doesn't always equal good story.Parker Industries after this was the same thing.In concept its interesting but execution was horrible.
Also as I said above just because you do some good it doesn't excuse all the bad you have done for most of your life.

[Celgress]

I think he is talking about the people of the MU.
I see where you are coming from but I don't agree.
I once met a guy in comicvine that said that SP was a good story because he didn't llike gwen and found her boring and it did something good with her,
SSP is not on the same level of bad as SP but it lasted much longer and can't easily be ignored in canon.
My point is new and interesting doesn't always equal good story.Parker Industries after this was the same thing.In concept its interesting but execution was horrible.
Also as I said above just because you do some good it doesn't excuse all the bad you have done for most of your life.

I've stated my point. I see no reason to say more about this subject. I'll leave you with this -

We fundamentally disagree about Superior that's the way it is. I see no narrative value and I have no interest in reading the same type of Ock stories I've read a thousand times before you do. You'll NEVER convince revisionist Otto is anything other than boring.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Another reason why I prefer Manga over American Comic Books is that character development is seldomly rolled back so drastically or in such a hamfisted manner. I truly feel this outdated mindset is one of the reasons Manga sales have outpaced American Comic Book sales by such a large margin in recent years. Your average consumer craves more sophisticated storytelling these days.

Manga has outstripped them for a number of reasons - 1. The characters grow and the story has a "end point", 2. Manga is cost effective and you get more bang for your buck, 3. Manga is available in bookstores, online, comic shops etc while comics are restricted to bricks & mortar. Manga and American comics have two totally different flavours.

American comics can absolutely be sophisticated. But i feel there is a need to make the characters speak/act in stupid ways in recent years. I love RDjr, but Tony did not speak or act in the way he has since Iron Man 1 hit for his entire publishing history up to that point.

[Celgress]

Manga has outstripped them for a number of reasons - 1. The characters grow and the story has a "end point", 2. Manga is cost effective and you get more bang for your buck, 3. Manga is available in bookstores, online, comic shops etc while comics are restricted to bricks & mortar. Manga and American comics have two totally different flavours.

American comics can absolutely be sophisticated. But i feel there is a need to make the characters speak/act in stupid ways in recent years. I love RDjr, but Tony did not speak or act in the way he has since Iron Man 1 hit for his entire publishing history up to that point.

All valid points except for the "endpoint" argument, not all Mangas have one, but otherwise, I agree with you.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I happen to agree with you. I have seen where Marvel has overused Norman and Victor Von Doom and those two are great characters. Mephisto is not even that. I wish they would get rid of all of the deals and take Mephisto out of Marvel for about 5 years and then only use him where he belongs: In Dr. Strange.

Mephisto definitely needs a rest. I really hope that, once whatever happens when his involvement with Peter is revealed, that he goes away for a long time. It likely won't happen, but one can dream.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Doctor Doom is probably the second nemesis Spider-man has. In fact, there are some periods where he has been more important than the Green Goblin.
So yeah, they were never going to keep him being good, he isn't Venom.

Also, someone mentioned Manga earlier and comparing it to American comic sales, the reason why Manga generally sells better is because of availability, price and bubble. Manga is usually cheaper, easier to buy and you know how to get into it, just read volume 1 and you're at most going to read about 10-20 years worth of manga (unless your One Piece).
Comics have a 60-80 year history, and just getting into Spider-man requires so much to read beforehand that it can be considered homework.

Like if I told you that a Wolverine and Spider-man one-shot was important to the saga of the Hobgoblin, a story that run for over 2 years (with a retcon later), you'll just give up on that.

There's also the fact that some great stuff hasn't been reprinted like some of the spectacular Spider-man issues.
There's a lot to look into it, it's not just retcons, but retcons are a symptom of it

This. Agreed 100%.