A 'Sinister" Revelation in ASM 64?

[Spiderfan001]

I've stated my point. I see no reason to say more about this subject. I'll leave you with this -

We fundamentally disagree about Superior that's the way it is. I see no narrative value and I have no interest in reading the same type of Ock stories I've read a thousand times before you do. You'll NEVER convince revisionist Otto is anything other than boring.

I agree with you on not having evil otto.I like that they went for a redemption story.My gripe is that they failed(imo).You keep saying that SSP is better cause bad guy ock is boring.i am saying that they should have done a better job at SSP that did not ruin characters like MJ and many other faults I have listed above.Lets leave it at that.Cheers!

[Spiderfan001]

Are doctor doom and spider-man that close.I always hear that doom was always a tier above the wall crawler

[Somecrazyaussie]

Venom.

If you seriously believe that then you have to believe that it's only a matter of time before Venom goes back to the way he was, despite all of his massive character development.

Or Jonah. After what is a complete overhaul of their relationship, it's only a matter of time before he goes back to his "THAT WEBBED MENANCE!" mentality.

And there is the problem in comics nowadays. If everything is going to eventually go back the way it was then why even bother?

Doc Ock was a villain for decades and his position as such was cemented long ago. Not long after Venom was introduced, Marvel saw his popularity and began working to reposition him as a anti-hero. Venom's motivations are different to Otto's and Norman's in that he only had a gripe against Peter. He never really targeted others, rob banks, or try to rule the world. He just wanted to get back at Peter for the perceivable "ruining" of his life. The others were straight up evil.

It is why we ended up getting Carnage. It allowed Marvel to have another villainous symbiote character (a mass murderer to boot) and the freedom to make Venom more heroic.

As such Venom is worth more to Marvel as a hero. Moreso than the one note villain he was before.

[marhawkman]

I can assure you my reaction was and is far from "disingenuous" -

"not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

I legitimately enjoyed the story. In fact, it was the first time I EVER found Otto interesting in modern times outside of Spider-Man 2. Other than SM 2 Pre-Superior I found Otto to be nothing more than a cackling worn-out 2-D villain of little if any relevancy or interest.

Yes, what I like about Otto is that he's a man with goals and... some of the time those goals are supervillain stuff... some.... only some.

One thing that struck me about the 90s Spider-Man cartoon was that there were few cardboard villains. Each of them had a personality where you can see how they had the opportunity to do good things... if they chose to. As the story goes "with great power comes great responsibility". True evil is about the choices you make, not the hand you're dealt. This was actually the way the series DEFINED villains. They were bad people because they CHOSE to do bad things, and the series showed you those choices. It also showed that they had other options. And this is what makes the decisions meaningful.

And in the case of Otto Octavius it showed what he was capable of as a scientist, and how his inventions could be used for good. It left you with the idea that... maybe if things had gone differently... he might have been a hero. If he'd chosen that.

Which was another thing. Choices happened. They weren't just backstory. Alistair Smythe... chose to become a hero... sort of... temporarily....

[Aura Blaize]

Not saying that redemption isn't possible but it takes time and your crimes wont just be forgotten because you played hero under the moniker of an actual hero who has spent decades doing the good work.Vol 2 had the right idea still he should not wear the spider-suit.He has not earned it in any sense

What constitutes "earning"? The first volume he stole it and made it his own, but the second volume he didn't. Peter himself gave him his blessing. And yes, he's done a lot of bad, but I can say the same thing about Kaine. He did a lot of bad in his life but then he gives his life to save Peter, then is revived and helps save New York. Here's a stealth suit. Go be Spider-Man. Ben lost his damn mind and went straight up super-villain. Welp, go reclaim your Scarlet Spider identity while working toward redemption.

Otto took over Peter's body, was ultimately more effective until Osborn came back, in which he sacrificed his life to help save the day. Then he fights against the Inheritors with Miles and the other Spiders, moves to San Francisco and saves the world against a herald of Galactus, saved the city multiple times and it actually tore at him that he couldn't do more. Nope! He totally doesn't deserve to be a Spider. Time to bring back Doc Ock, whom we've seen a million times already because marvel would rather go back to that than to actually take the character in a new direction for any considerable length of time.

[NC_Yankee]

Mephisto definitely needs a rest. I really hope that, once whatever happens when his involvement with Peter is revealed, that he goes away for a long time. It likely won't happen, but one can dream.

If you go back to OMD, the very use of Mephisto and the deal was lazy writing at the end of a run ( JMS). If Marvel did not want Peter and MJ to be married, that is their call ( right or wrong) and a million dollar business decision. But instead of a cheap deal they could have put some effort into a story to break them up ( not to mention failing to undo Sins Past as JMS originally planned). Same for Otto. If you do not want him as a hero ( or even anti-hero) it is Marvel’s call ( he is their intellectual property), but instead of another cheap deal, come up with a plausible and logical reason for him turning bad again. Do I have the scripts for that? No I do not attempt to write fan fiction ( I am also not paid six or seven figure dollar amounts to come up with ideas). What disturbs me most of all about OMD and repeating it is this: Marvel knows ( or should know) that the idea behind Peter and OMD is not only lazy writing but almost universally despised , so what makes them think it is any better with Otto or Miles? “The definition of insanity: “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.” (Albert Einstein).

[Spiderfan001]

What constitutes "earning"? The first volume he stole it and made it his own, but the second volume he didn't. Peter himself gave him his blessing. And yes, he's done a lot of bad, but I can say the same thing about Kaine. He did a lot of bad in his life but then he gives his life to save Peter, then is revived and helps save New York. Here's a stealth suit. Go be Spider-Man. Ben lost his damn mind and went straight up super-villain. Welp, go reclaim your Scarlet Spider identity while working toward redemption.

Otto took over Peter's body, was ultimately more effective until Osborn came back, in which he sacrificed his life to help save the day. Then he fights against the Inheritors with Miles and the other Spiders, moves to San Francisco and saves the world against a herald of Galactus, saved the city multiple times and it actually tore at him that he couldn't do more. Nope! He totally doesn't deserve to be a Spider. Time to bring back Doc Ock, whom we've seen a million times already because marvel would rather go back to that than to actually take the character in a new direction for any considerable length of time.

"was ultimately more effective"
is exactly what I was talking about.He wasn't.All the stupid mistakes Peter made that ock didn't were in dan slott's run.He wrote peter as a man-child and then tried to make it a plot point even though it wad just horrible writing.Spider-man never made those mistakes after his teen years.Spider-man is much better at the job than otto ever was since the JMS era.Otto arrogantly confronted the Avengers and quit in their face,paraded armies of Spider-bots,enjoyed himself while norman was building his empire.He even admitted that Peter was better at the job.
As for the rest you have said:-
Earning is(imo) proportionate to the bad you have done.Kaine and Ben were clones and had horrible lives and experiences to bring them up to this point.Otto was bullied which is bad but nowhere near justifies all the horrible stuff he has destroyed.Would you justify a terrorist because he was bullied as a child.
As I said before I like him as a good guy but he should have a different identity other than SSM or Spiders in general.Overtime(like maybe vol 3) he should get a Spider-name.And not the superior Spider-man.The entire end of SSM was otto admitting Peter was the SSM.Going back to it makes no sense.Him wearing the Spider-suit is like joker wearing the bat-suit unironically and then batman saying good job.He needs to do much more and a change in attitude would help.otto showed humility in the ned in SSM.We need to see more of that like when Otto and peter talk about failing in vol 2 before he puts on the suit.

[Spiderfan001]

If you go back to OMD, the very use of Mephisto and the deal was lazy writing at the end of a run ( JMS). If Marvel did not want Peter and MJ to be married, that is their call ( right or wrong) and a million dollar business decision. But instead of a cheap deal they could have put some effort into a story to break them up ( not to mention failing to undo Sins Past as JMS originally planned). Same for Otto. If you do not want him as a hero ( or even anti-hero) it is Marvel’s call ( he is their intellectual property), but instead of another cheap deal, come up with a plausible and logical reason for him turning bad again. Do I have the scripts for that? No I do not attempt to write fan fiction ( I am also not paid six or seven figure dollar amounts to come up with ideas). What disturbs me most of all about OMD and repeating it is this: Marvel knows ( or should know) that the idea behind Peter and OMD is not only lazy writing but almost universally despised , so what makes them think it is any better with Otto or Miles? “The definition of insanity: “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.” (Albert Einstein).

Yup.Although making Peter and MJ up would be hard since MJ would stick by peter more the tougher things got(unlike the MJ we got in SSM vol 1 end).Atleast they didn't do a cheating plot or fake death plot.Would have been cool if we saw otto be a hero but realizing what a thankless job it is and giving into the dark again.Miles deal was just for cash grab.No lasting consequences.

[Aura Blaize]

"was ultimately more effective"
is exactly what I was talking about.He wasn't.All the stupid mistakes Peter made that ock didn't were in dan slott's run.He wrote peter as a man-child and then tried to make it a plot point even though it wad just horrible writing.Spider-man never made those mistakes after his teen years.Spider-man is much better at the job than otto ever was since the JMS era.Otto arrogantly confronted the Avengers and quit in their face,paraded armies of Spider-bots,enjoyed himself while norman was building his empire.He even admitted that Peter was better at the job.
As for the rest you have said:-
Earning is(imo) proportionate to the bad you have done.Kaine and Ben were clones and had horrible lives and experiences to bring them up to this point.Otto was bullied which is bad but nowhere near justifies all the horrible stuff he has destroyed.Would you justify a terrorist because he was bullied as a child.
As I said before I like him as a good guy but he should have a different identity other than SSM or Spiders in general.Overtime(like maybe vol 3) he should get a Spider-name.And not the superior Spider-man.The entire end of SSM was otto admitting Peter was the SSM.Going back to it makes no sense.Him wearing the Spider-suit is like joker wearing the bat-suit unironically and then batman saying good job.He needs to do much more and a change in attitude would help.otto showed humility in the ned in SSM.We need to see more of that like when Otto and peter talk about failing in vol 2 before he puts on the suit.

He was more effective, or rather, efficient. Though admittedly that doesn't make him better. Slott's writing what it is, he made a good point which Gage brought up in Vol 2. Peter doesn't live up to his intellectual potential. It's something that has been brought up a lot over the decades. Everything that Otto did, Peter could do if he applied himself.

[Spiderfan001]

He was more effective, or rather, efficient. Though admittedly that doesn't make him better. Slott's writing what it is, he made a good point which Gage brought up in Vol 2. Peter doesn't live up to his intellectual potential. It's something that has been brought up a lot over the decades. Everything that Otto did, Peter could do if he applied himself.

he doesn't live up to his intellectual potential because writers are afraid if they let him live up to his 250 IQ then he may lose his everyman appeal.Although I think that is the direction they should take him in the future.Peter is smarter than otto and has been roven multiple times.Aside from the times he outsmarted him I am talking about him beating peter in a brainpower fight where he beats him up and makes him plead to him.Also there are scans where otto couldn't solve a problem peter did relatively easily.Also in ends of the earth Ock stole Peter's ideas.

[NC_Yankee]

Yup.Although making Peter and MJ up would be hard since MJ would stick by peter more the tougher things got(unlike the MJ we got in SSM vol 1 end).Atleast they didn't do a cheating plot or fake death plot.Would have been cool if we saw otto be a hero but realizing what a thankless job it is and giving into the dark again.Miles deal was just for cash grab.No lasting consequences.

The entire OMD reasoning with Peter was a cash grab as well. They ( Marvel) were afraid people would not accept a Middle aged Peter and possibly losing their cash cow in Peter. ( I majored in Finance so I get it). What is a problem is their utter lack of trust of their audience. Two things I have liked about Spencer’s run. 1: It is not being done out of fear. Two: He has a thought out plan which is something you can respect ( as opposed to lazy writing): He has a beginning, middle and end. Does it mean it will be successful? Maybe, maybe not, we shall see. But it is certainly better organized and thought out then the end of JMS ( ending with OMD and being stuck with Sins Past) or the WTF run of Dan Slott.

[Spiderfan001]

The entire OMD reasoning with Peter was a cash grab as well. They ( Marvel) were afraid people would not accept a Middle aged Peter and possibly losing their cash cow in Peter. ( I majored in Finance so I get it). What is a problem is their utter lack of trust of their audience. Two things I have liked about Spencer’s run. 1: It is not being done out of fear. Two: He has a thought out plan which is something you can respect ( as opposed to lazy writing): He has a beginning, middle and end. Does it mean it will be successful? Maybe, maybe not, we shall see. But it is certainly better organized and thought out then the end of JMS ( ending with OMD and being stuck with Sins Past) or the WTF run of Dan Slott.

Oh yeah.I meant miles mephisto was a cash grab since Spider-man mephisto have history so they use it to sell the champions book.It doesn't have any consequences.Everything you said here I agree with 100%

[NC_Yankee]

Oh yeah.I meant miles mephisto was a cash grab since Spider-man mephisto have history so they use it to sell the champions book.It doesn't have any consequences.Everything you said here I agree with 100%

There is definitely a consequence ( actually two). 1: In the short term it is a lame way to sell a book ( Champions) instead of coming up with: Need I say: A good story that will compel people to want to buy the comic ( when it originally came out or in trades). 2: Long Term: It is another example ( like Clone Saga) of taking a Peter story and reworking it for Miles. Basically Peter hand me downs. Miles needs his own stories. His own rogues gallery, his own love interest ( he especially does not need a girlfriend that is a variation of Gwen Stacy), and yes to make his own mistakes ( and to have the opportunity to learn from them ( Lord knows I made my mistakes as a teenager ( as did about 99% of the population)). Basically Marvel is stunting Miles character growth through lazy writing.

[marhawkman]

He was more effective, or rather, efficient. Though admittedly that doesn't make him better. Slott's writing what it is, he made a good point which Gage brought up in Vol 2. Peter doesn't live up to his intellectual potential. It's something that has been brought up a lot over the decades. Everything that Otto did, Peter could do if he applied himself.

Heck it isn't a NEW idea either. In the 90s cartoon it was something Ock realized. At first he was like "oh it's an idiot in a mask" but quickly realized that Spider-man was beating him because he understood the tech Ock was using. At one point Ock even pondered if he might be fighting one of his own students. (yes, yes he was. )

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Aura Blaize;5504113]He was more effective, or rather, efficient. Though admittedly that doesn't make him better. Slott's writing what it is, he made a good point which Gage brought up in Vol 2. Peter doesn't live up to his intellectual potential. It's something that has been brought up a lot over the decades. Everything that Otto did, Peter could do if he applied himself.[/QUOTE
I do not agree with that. I can tell you I had to work two jobs and go to college and it was not easy. Peter has to be Spider-Man and pay the rent ( and I guarantee classes like Organic Chemistry are harder then what I took). Maybe if Marvel wants to give Peter a six month sabbatical/vacation with MJ and have Miles take over being Spider-Man until he returns he can do it, but he simply does not have the amount of time that Otto, Reed Richards or Victor Von Doom had.