A 'Sinister" Revelation in ASM 64?

[Kevinroc]

I admit I do not read Captain America so I did not read Hydra Cap. That said We can agree that Amazing on average is the most important comic in Marvel. So my question is this: If people above editorial were so angry at Hydra Cap, why would they hire the man who wrote it ( Nick Spencer) to go and write your most important character? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The people above Marvel Editorial seem to be pretty hands off as to what happens in the comics for the most part. I doubt they know or care who any of the people are who write Amazing Spider-Man or Captain America or whatever other title Marvel publishes. It's just that this one specific story broke through to the mainstream and pissed a lot of people off.

[NC_Yankee]

The people above Marvel Editorial seem to be pretty hands off as to what happens in the comics for the most part. I doubt they know or care who any of the people are who write Amazing Spider-Man or Captain America or whatever other title Marvel publishes. It's just that this one specific story broke through to the mainstream and pissed a lot of people off.

My entire point is if they were unhappy then Spencer and those who approved the story would have been fired. Plus the people at Marvel Editorial in the name of CYA ( Cover Your Ass) would not have hired him for Amazing. I can tell you I am one of the more politically conservative posters here and Captain America as a Nazi had a shelf life of about an hour. Why? Because I know Captain America is often a political comic. By comparison OMD has had one for over a decade. I can also tell you I do not care about SpencerÂ’s politics or what he wrote about Cap. I do care about Amazing, and I do care if OMD disappears or not. That is what I grade him on.

[xpyred]

Off topic as far as Hydra Cap goes, but what do you all suppose is the connection between Doc Ock, Kindred, Norman Osborn and Peter/Spider-Man. The only connection I see at the moment is that Norman is responsible for Gwen’s death and Ock is responsible for George Stacy’s death. Both of those death’s because of Peter’s slow or poor reaction.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The people above Marvel Editorial seem to be pretty hands off as to what happens in the comics for the most part. I doubt they know or care who any of the people are who write Amazing Spider-Man or Captain America or whatever other title Marvel publishes. It's just that this one specific story broke through to the mainstream and pissed a lot of people off.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. There's a story that Jeanette Kahn announced the Death of Superman and then got an angry phonecall from the big President of Warner Bros who asked her what was she thinking announcing the death of their top merchandising character and she had to explain the rudiments of comics storytelling to him.

So I think Secret Empire ran on the same issue.

And to be honest nobody looked good in that mess. Obviously Spencer and the editors knew "NaziCap" would create buzz on social media and get print. They aimed to break into the newspapers and they knew that the buzz and being talked about online would generate content greater than any of the stuff in the story.

And here's how I feel...when you are doing a comics' event with that much heat and attention, the only way to redeem that is if you do a truly great defining story. The story should be on the level of The Death of Superman at least (which was a big gimmick but also a really well told story with strong emotions) and Secret Empire is at best on-par. It wasn't enough to justify the publicity and buzz it was trying to get.

[Kevinroc]

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. There's a story that Jeanette Kahn announced the Death of Superman and then got an angry phonecall from the big President of Warner Bros who asked her what was she thinking announcing the death of their top merchandising character and she had to explain the rudiments of comics storytelling to him.

So I think Secret Empire ran on the same issue.

And to be honest nobody looked good in that mess. Obviously Spencer and the editors knew "NaziCap" would create buzz on social media and get print. They aimed to break into the newspapers and they knew that the buzz and being talked about online would generate content greater than any of the stuff in the story.

And here's how I feel...when you are doing a comics' event with that much heat and attention, the only way to redeem that is if you do a truly great defining story. The story should be on the level of The Death of Superman at least (which was a big gimmick but also a really well told story with strong emotions) and Secret Empire is at best on-par. It wasn't enough to justify the publicity and buzz it was trying to get.

The rumors are that the people high up in the company dictated Secret Empire be changed from what Marvel and Spencer originally intended, and Marvel Editorial offered him Amazing Spider-Man to make it up to him (and, if true, I imagine to send a message to other creators that they would still give them high-profile work when those high up in the company got involved in their comics).

[Jman27]

Off topic as far as Hydra Cap goes, but what do you all suppose is the connection between Doc Ock, Kindred, Norman Osborn and Peter/Spider-Man. The only connection I see at the moment is that Norman is responsible for Gwen’s death and Ock is responsible for George Stacy’s death. Both of those death’s because of Peter’s slow or poor reaction.

they cause peter grief?

[Frontier]

Off topic as far as Hydra Cap goes, but what do you all suppose is the connection between Doc Ock, Kindred, Norman Osborn and Peter/Spider-Man. The only connection I see at the moment is that Norman is responsible for Gwen’s death and Ock is responsible for George Stacy’s death. Both of those death’s because of Peter’s slow or poor reaction.

Peter's "original sins?"

In before Bennet Brant comes back up...

[Agent Z]

Dan Slott is a freelancer and rest assured he's not making "millions". Neither in fact are editors like Wacker (at least from editing alone, maybe he earned more in producing animation?). Writing comics is not at all a high paying gig.



Dan Slott and Wacker and others did get unfair comments, insults, and worse stuff online. All that is true and it's not deserved in the slightest.

At the same time, Slott and Wacker made the choice to enter into this fray, they decided to barge in places where they had to know they wouldn't be welcome. They weren't content with letting the work talk for itself.

Wacker and Slott also knew that they were coming after a story that was indefensible from any angle and yet they were paid to essentially validate that decision which meant that they couldn't publicly say anything about that. That's a difficult position from a professional perspective and I respect people wanting to do stuff they dislike to pay rent...that's fair, I don't respect people indulging in public acts of self-pity or trying to come across as heroes for doing that. And that's what a lot of the affect that Wacker and Slott put on in their interactions. They kept whining that people never got over OMD, that nobody treats them fairly and while that might be true, it's also something that comes with the territory and there was a lack of self-awareness there.

So it's okay for fans to take out their anger on a bad story on real life people who didn't even create it and were just trying to make the best of it as part of their job? I didn't like a lot of what Slott did but there is no excuse for the fandom's behaviour. We should be able to express dissatisfaction without coming across as needlessly hostile and immature to creators. No bad story will ever justify that.

[Agent Z]

It is not just about MJ. Look at the hatchet job on Felicia, the dumbing down of Peter, and last but certainly not least the snarky comments. I am also he first person to acknowledge that the property of Spider-Man belongs to Marvel ( and now their corporate parent Disney), certainly not to me. But I have said it before and I will say it again, Dan Slott and company made reading Spider-Man an unpleasant experience and after Silk, I did the only thing that was an acceptable way to voice my displeasure: Stop reading or even commenting until he left the book. To this day I will not read FF on anything he writes.

Slott said he wanted to undo the Queenpin thing as quickly as possible. It was editorial that dragged it out.

[Spidey_62]

Slott said he wanted to undo the Queenpin thing as quickly as possible. It was editorial that dragged it out.

Seems like it's always editorial dragging everything out. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the pacing problems with some of the stories like Last Remains or the sudden onslaught of one-shots and miniseries to wrap up stories from Spencer's run stem from the same place.

[Kevinroc]

Seems like it's always editorial dragging everything out. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the pacing problems with some of the stories like Last Remains or the sudden onslaught of one-shots and miniseries to wrap up stories from Spencer's run stem from the same place.

It seems pretty clear that Marvel is aiming for another line-wide relaunch in the fall.

[Spidey_62]

It seems pretty clear that Marvel is aiming for another line-wide relaunch in the fall.

Yeah, it does seem that way- I still think the rush of extra giant sized wrapup books aside from the normally scheduled ASM issues is tacky. I honestly wish there'd be a change in editorial direction more than I do Spencer leaving the book, I believe Wacker was on the book from 2008 to before Superior ended in late 2013-early 2014 and Lowe took over when Superior was wrapping up. Folks can say what they want about the whole BND era but Wacker drove a tight ship editorially, and Slott's stronger stories with his solo run by and large were under his tenure.

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, it does seem that way- I still think the rush of extra giant sized wrapup books aside from the normally scheduled ASM issues is tacky. I honestly wish there'd be a change in editorial direction more than I do Spencer leaving the book, I believe Wacker was on the book from 2008 to before Superior ended in late 2013-early 2014 and Lowe took over when Superior was wrapping up. Folks can say what they want about the whole BND era but Wacker drove a tight ship editorially, and Slott's stronger stories with his solo run by and large were under his tenure.

I agree. I'd rather they just let these issues release at a natural pace instead of rushing to hit an arbitrary deadline that they themselves set to launch a string of "new" titles. But this is their call, not mine.

[NC_Yankee]

Slott said he wanted to undo the Queenpin thing as quickly as possible. It was editorial that dragged it out.

Typical Dan Slott. Something goes wrong is always someone else’s fault. He bears no blame in anything bad happening ( well in his mind perhaps).

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So it's okay for fans to take out their anger on a bad story on real life people who didn't even create it and were just trying to make the best of it as part of their job? I didn't like a lot of what Slott did but there is no excuse for the fandom's behaviour. We should be able to express dissatisfaction without coming across as needlessly hostile and immature to creators. No bad story will ever justify that.

It's not really about things being "okay" or not.

Fans are going to be fans. They aren't paid to do anything. You can't vote for a new fandom in the place of the one that's there.

If you are going to be involved in doing a version that's editorially driven and one which the fans have little to no interest in, then you need to be realistic in handling interactions with them. Keep a distance, let the work speak for itself, and let things go. Instead you have constant barging in of message boards to pick fights, constant public complaining about how nobody gives you a fair chance and it lent a sense of immaturity to the whole thing.

What I said about Nick Spencer and "HydraCap" and nobody looking good in that situation applies to Slott and others. These comics sell and gain eyes not merely on the content of the issues but also in promotion, in buzz and discussion. And Slott and Wacker decided to paint and present themselves as daring people doing a status-quo that fans didn't like and barge in places where there were heated discussions and they generated heating discussion to make themselves look that way.