Superman: son of Kal-El

[Nelliebly]

Because there will be no more comics with Clark Kent as Superman, nor films, videogames, books or toys. Nothing. They will even change the classical comics and films in order to make Clark dissappeared. "Who is Clark, anyway? He is Jon's dad. A Kryptonian. It's said that he was a hero but if I read my digital copy of Action Comics #1 it clearly says that Superman is Jon Kent, not Clark". It's the end of the world as we know it.

LOL.

Right. It’s not like there is a show right now that’s the most streamed show in the history of the network where Clark Kent is Superman. They will probably change the show too.

[Vordan]

Can I trouble you for a link?



I have to imagine it's all been in service of Taylor's run. This change over didn't happen over night. PKJ's been saying that he's not going to be on both books since the start, and he's been saying that the plans for Jon are and have always been beyond just him. So I'd say it's a safe bet to assume PKJ's words are a teaser for Taylor's run rather than *just* what he feels about the character.

While I assume you're not reading Nightwing since it's Taylor, it's worth noting that the main thrust of that book is not at all dissimilar to what's being set up for Jon. Similar to Jon, Dick is now functionally more "powerful" than Bruce because Bruce lost a LOT of money, and now Dick is a Big B Billionaire. That's similar to how Clark is being physically depowered while Jon is growing more powerful than Clark ever was. What will be interesting is if we see Jon also follow in line with Dick in how he's doing things differently from Bruce. In issue two Dick says that he's always felt Batman could've done more as Bruce.

Both runs seem to have similar themes of two young guys who have inherited ridiculous amounts of power, but they don't actually want it, and they don't know what to do with it to be helpful while still remaining themselves.

I am reading Nightwing actually! Had to pick it up to support Dick returning to normal after Ric. But I had the opposite reaction of you in that I thought the first issue was good while the second was weak. I can see some similarities for sure between where the two are, but Dick already has had a lot of worldbuilding and character development whereas Jon as a solo entity has not. The decompression of Nightwing isn’t really going to work for Jon, a lot of work needs to be done and done quickly.

Here’s a link to the Lois tweet: https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...639517192?s=21

[Nelliebly]

I’ll say this for Tom Taylor: when he says he cares about Lois, I actually do believe him. He’s just not the type of guy to lie and I give him credit because he was quick to reassure people about her and didn’t get defensive.

Some other writers could learn from him. ::cough::

[Drako]

Can I trouble you for a link?

OF COURSE! Lois Lane is my hero every bit as much as #Superman.
Lois is one of the fiercest, most fearless champions of truth, and Jon is influenced by Lois every bit as much as Clark.

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...66299639517192

[Superlad93]

The decompression of Nightwing isn’t really going to work for Jon, a lot of work needs to be done and done quickly.

I'll actually disagree with you a bit on this. Compression has actually been the issue with Jon as of late. Reading issue 2 again was actually the thing that got me to realize what Taylor brings to Jon specifically, and it's something not may other writers bring in this specific way: normal character moments that are as memorable as the biggest action and worldbuilding scenes. Jon just getting a slice of pizza with someone is the sort of thing that needs to be more regularly sprinkled in with him.

Speaking just on his character, Jon's someone who has lived the strangest life possible. He's seen and done so much...but be a little average. Finally slowing down living in his normal time and Earth is his final frontier, and the thing that's loomed over his head because 1) he's gotta finally stop running from being Superman, and 2) he's gotta put up roots somewhere after not feeling like he's had a time or Earth to call home. The mix of the average and the spectacular will be the key imo.

Here’s a link to the Lois tweet: https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...639517192?s=21

Thanks!

[Prime]

As someone who enjoyed quite a few of the Superman comics of the 2010s, I still think that decade was the worst one Superman has ever had. So I don’t think we’re too unjustified in being sourpusses

I hope you’re right, we know PKJ and Taylor have talked for a long time prior to this announcement straight from the men themselves, so I hope that a lot of those ideas PKJ talked about are ones Taylor shares. Really need Taylor to do an interview or something where he actually talks about his plans so we’re not just guessing. I want to know what his long term vision for this character and book are.

Good, I’m glad. The Lois-Jon relationship hasn’t been fleshed out at all really. She and Jon were portrayed as close during Lois & Clark, but since then it’s been all about Jon and Clark. I want to know how Lois feels about Jon stepping up in his father’s absence.

Its not just comics that's been sh*t dude. Literally the media like video games and movies. For some reason we got literally a cardboard cut out in the movies who might be evil. Speaking of evil we also had rise to she sh*try evil Superman theme. And DC killed Superman in 3 different medias all at once.

[Vordan]

I'll actually disagree with you a bit on this. Compression has actually been the issue with Jon as of late. Reading issue 2 again was actually the thing that got me to realize what Taylor brings to Jon specifically, and it's something not may other writers bring in this specific way: normal character moments that are as memorable as the biggest action and worldbuilding scenes. Jon just getting a slice of pizza with someone is the sort of thing that needs to be more regularly sprinkled in with him.

Speaking just on his character, Jon's someone who has lived the strangest life possible. He's seen and done so much...but be a little average. Finally slowing down living in his normal time and Earth is his final frontier, and the thing that's loomed over his head because 1) he's gotta finally stop running from being Superman, and 2) he's gotta put up roots somewhere after not feeling like he's had a time or Earth to call home. The mix of the average and the spectacular will be the key imo.



Thanks!

Hm, you have a point about Jon needing some more normality. But those kind of moments are more impactful if they’re also paired with a sense of momentum, that the story is pushing forward and development is happening. With Jon you essentially have to build a new character from scratch because he hasn’t been built to function on his own as a solo hero. Taylor usually balanced the “normal” “feels” moments with story progression and excitement by murdering people as he did in Injustice, Suicide Squad and DCeased which is why he’s struggled with ongoing stories outside of those murder happy franchises for me anyway.

Its not just comics that's been sh*t dude. Literally the media like video games and movies. For some reason we got literally a cardboard cut out in the movies who might be evil. Speaking of evil we also had rise to she sh*try evil Superman theme. And DC killed Superman in 3 different medias all at once.

Oh I know, that’s what I was referring to. The decade as a whole was the worst one for Superman overall in terms of his mass media presence. Comics, tv, film, video games, it was terrible imo if you measure up the quality of it all.

[Superlad93]

Hm, you have a point about Jon needing some more normality. But those kind of moments are more impactful if they’re also paired with a sense of momentum, that the story is pushing forward and development is happening. With Jon you essentially have to build a new character from scratch because he hasn’t been built to function on his own as a solo hero. Taylor usually balanced the “normal” “feels” moments with story progression and excitement by murdering people as he did in Injustice, Suicide Squad and DCeased which is why he’s struggled with ongoing stories outside of those murder happy franchises for me anyway.

I think that's an oversimplification, but it's also subjective so that's fine. His Spider-Man is my north star for what he can do when on his game for real. That book was marketed as the small scale Spider-Man book, and it did a bunch of "little guy" normal stuff and juxtaposed it with a pretty out there idea. The wasn't any random killings or anything like that. If he can basically just upscale the feel of his Spider-Man run, I think Jon's in really strong hands.

And I'm not sure how you can really hold Taylor moving plot along via killing characters in SS, DCeased, and Injustice of all things. Those books are literally *just* that based on concept alone. SS *not* doing that for so long was actually an issue.

[manofsteel1979]

I don’t really buy that because guess who is entering public domain a year after Clark? Bruce, and there’s no way WB/DC will ever be replacing Bruce in a long term capacity. If they did want to replace Clark with a Superman they own wholeheartedly, why Jon? Given the emphasis on creative synergy that’s said to be a much stronger factor at DC, Jon seems a weird choice. He (likely) won’t be the Superman of the reboot, he’s the one who doesn’t have powers on the show, and everywhere else Clark is still Superman (animation, video games, etc). I guess maybe they’re waiting for Taylor to build Jon up first and then they’ll start using what he establishes but I doubt that, WB isn’t that coordinated

No I think the answer is much simpler: Jon is their attempt at a New 52 reboot of the Superman franchise without taking away from those who love Superdad. You want your old, boring married Superman who can’t screw up because he’s “the best of us” and has to always remain wholesome and make you feel good? Fine you can have that loser, he’ll be over in Action being boring for you boomers. Meanwhile we’ll take Jon, who isn’t locked into one love interest as the endgame like Clark is, who can screw up and still be relatable because who can’t relate to wanting to live up to your dad but occasionally making a mess of it? Who isn’t locked into a job in a dying industry, who doesn’t have a silly secret identity just like all the cool Marvel characters don’t, who still has the all important tie to Batman through Damian, and so on and so forth. I’m pretty sure that’s how DC sees it and why they’re doing this. It’s crazy how we keep going in circles with Superman (origins, deaths, replacements) but it is what they seem committed to doing.

.

I actually think you are on to something with the New 52 comparison in the sense of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. It's clear from the asthetic of Jon's costume looking an awful lot like ol Nuperman's suit to him being a "cooler" alternative to the traditional Superman that Warners/DC hasn't let go of that ideal being their preferred Superman,they just found a work around of sorts.


As an aside...its interesting that nearly everyone admittintly including myself assumed that New 52 Superman and all of that was pretty much mostly Dan DiDio ,as was the idea of swapping Clark for Jon and yet he's gone from the company and we are still seeing Jon as Superman in the modern DCU basically being Nuperman reborn. Makes one wonder about the last decade or so in regards to DC. The New 52 and specifically the Superman we got out of it maybe wasn't as much DiDio but Warners wanting a cooler and hipper character to tie to the iconography of that ever present and marketable "S" .

[Yoda]

Idk about the controversial thread. But I do remember it you writting it a couple of years ago and it stuck to me because you are right. We really are...but can you blame us?

Ha, I'm sure I did say it cause I've long believed it. And I get it, we have it good in so many ways but DC & WBs constantly seem to mess things up in such a way that its supremely frustrating. So I don't blame us. But I do think we all can do a little better recognizing some of the good things we do get when we get them. I was really frustrated that the announcement of the CW show was met with more negative than positive - which again I got - but we do have to be one of the only fanbases that would basically complain about our characters getting a primetime hour long show.

I think that's basically it right here.

This may sound strange, but I'm basically going to take nearly everything PKJ has said about Jon directly and assume it's more or less coming from Taylor because PKJ's only writing Jon for like 5 issues, so it's pretty safe to assume that he's going off what Taylor needs/is planning.

I have to imagine it's all been in service of Taylor's run. This change over didn't happen over night. PKJ's been saying that he's not going to be on both books since the start, and he's been saying that the plans for Jon are and have always been beyond just him. So I'd say it's a safe bet to assume PKJ's words are a teaser for Taylor's run rather than *just* what he feels about the character.

I think all that PKJ has been saying about Jon has been summarizing the major things that Taylor will be doing. I do think there is a little bit of a contradiction between how he talked about the split before, because if I remember correctly he said he'd be writing both through the fall event. It seems like now that Taylor will be writing Jon for a few months with Clark in the picture on Earth and then Post-Fall Event the real split happens. They really do seem to be following a loose Invincible outline, but we're getting both stories at the same time.

I admit I even feel a little bad about being pissed about PKJ's run this whole time because had I known Taylor was getting Jon's book after the split I would have taken the plans more in stride.

I’ll say this for Tom Taylor: when he says he cares about Lois, I actually do believe him. He’s just not the type of guy to lie and I give him credit because he was quick to reassure people about her and didn’t get defensive.

Some other writers could learn from him. ::cough::

I also believe him and I don't think that he's not being hyperbolic and Lois will have a substantive and probably pretty substantial role. Like Superlad said, Taylor really excels at the interpersonal quieter character moments to build out the characters. Something Jon and Lois need together. I do think we'll some good stuff out of him particularly in that regard.

[Yoda]

I actually think you are on to something with the New 52 comparison in the sense of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. It's clear from the asthetic of Jon's costume looking an awful lot like ol Nuperman's suit to him being a "cooler" alternative to the traditional Superman that Warners/DC hasn't let go of that ideal being their preferred Superman,they just found a work around of sorts.


As an aside...its interesting that nearly everyone admittintly including myself assumed that New 52 Superman and all of that was pretty much mostly Dan DiDio ,as was the idea of swapping Clark for Jon and yet he's gone from the company and we are still seeing Jon as Superman in the modern DCU basically being Nuperman reborn. Makes one wonder about the last decade or so in regards to DC. The New 52 and specifically the Superman we got out of it maybe wasn't as much DiDio but Warners wanting a cooler and hipper character to tie to the iconography of that ever present and marketable "S" .

Didio was sort of famous within the industry for being willing to play the heel to take the heat for things that weren't necessarily his idea. But he's also on record as wanting to dissolve the marriage and things like that as far back as Infinite Crisis. If that was WB's main concern, they had an opportunity to push Superman in a "younger" direction with Man of Steel in 2013 and didn't.

But I would not be surprised if they looked at Marvel with the dual Spider-Men and thought that they could do that and diffuse a lot of the issues they had with the New 52 Superman relaunch.

[kilderkin]

There is a LOT of aggressive and offensive ageism in this post and none of it is appropriate or fair. I’m not here to debate the idea for the 1000th time that marriage and parenthood doesn’t automatically make someone “boring” and/or without conflict because that’s not something that should ::need:: to be debated. Anyone with maturity understands that that is NOT true.

However, I do take issue with the implication that the only people who like or appreciate a married Superman with a child is “boring” and/or a “boomer” and I definitely take issue with the generalization of age in this way in any capacity. That’s completely unfair, untrue and not appropriate. I am nowhere CLOSE to being a “boomer” nor am I a man btw and you shouldn’t be generalizing about people like this. It’s ageism.

Further, there is just as much an argument that it’s actually the “boring boomers” as you categorize them who actually prefer for Superman to never change. Historically, it’s been older white men of a certain age who insisted for years that Superman should not be allowed to be married and shouldn’t be a father both because they idealized the Superman of their youth ::cough Mark Waid::: cough::which was often the Silver or Bronze Age) and/or that they were influenced very much by the toxic masculinity that often plagued pop culture that wouldn’t let men be “tied down and painted marriage to a woman as a “ball and chain.” (Sexist) There is just as much an argument that allowing Clark to stay married and be a father is actually PROGRESS breaking free of that toxic (and sexist btw) Mindset. The idealization of the straight alpha male forever bachelor moving from woman to woman because he doesn’t want to be “tied down” is not progressive. Like that’s not considered cool anymore in most circles. If anything what’s considered more progressive now with straight men is the guy who actually stands by his wife if he’s sexually attracted to women. It’s the Barack Obama praising Michelle form of masculinity. That’s what is valued now with straight men who want to be with women. Leonardo DiCaprio with his constant string of 25 year old love interests is a punchline now. It’s George Clooney married to Amal—not the Clooney from last decade that had become a joke at award shows. An eternally bachelor Superman with a revolving door of love interests who can’t commit to Lois Lane even though he clearly loves her isn’t the 2021 masculine ideal—he’s a punchline.

Either way, the ageism is wrong. I’m not a boomer by any means and I like the married Superman and have zero desire to see a Superman who is eternally young and single. So stop implying that fans like me don’t exist bc we do.

Jon Kent is an opportunity to market Superman in a new way, yes. It’s not hard to understand why a legacy character who is the son of one of the most famous couples in pop culture history is both marketable and desirable if you are trying to refresh your brand. He is an extension of decades of investment in Lois and Clark AND a chance to create a legacy for new fans to see themselves in. You can believe that’s true without all the ageism—thanks.

There's for a long time those who have proposed this about superman

Of course opinions vary as do character preferences

But it isn't true

It never has been

If it was he wouldn't still be the major character he is, with multiple books, appearances and featured in multiple media

He also wouldn't still be in publication

And he wouldn't generate these debates if it was

He might not sell the most, but he is without question the most important

The only reason his most recent film appearances haven't been as well received is because they deviated from this

As for Jon, it staggers me that DC think pushing this aged Jon will work when the kid version was do well received,vdi well liked and do well appointed to give more depth and range to his dad's mythos, which was already well appointed

They for some reason think the monitor is enough, without the character,

The fudge of the new 52 clearly disproves this

The reception of BMB run does too, when you compare it to the reception of the previous

They will keep trying to push replacements for all, to some extent Bruce too,

None will stick, at least not in the books

[Superlad93]

I think all that PKJ has been saying about Jon has been summarizing the major things that Taylor will be doing. I do think there is a little bit of a contradiction between how he talked about the split before, because if I remember correctly he said he'd be writing both through the fall event. It seems like now that Taylor will be writing Jon for a few months with Clark in the picture on Earth and then Post-Fall Event the real split happens. They really do seem to be following a loose Invincible outline, but we're getting both stories at the same time.

I admit I even feel a little bad about being pissed about PKJ's run this whole time because had I known Taylor was getting Jon's book after the split I would have taken the plans more in stride

As far as I remember he never confirmed that he'd be writing through the fall. That was an assumption we as fans made based on him saying that he'd be the book for some months building towards the him just working on Action. The most he mentioned was this big summer status quo shift.

And from the sound of things Clark's only going to be on Earth for 4 issues after Son of Kal-El starts. This is because Superman & The Authority's solicitation says that it will end with stuff that spins out into Son of Superman and Action and be the new status quo going forward. And that book is 4 issues long, so that ends right at the start of the fall.

Plus, that's not even getting into the fact that Son of Kal-El may take place after Superman & The Authority and Action, and the two will catch up in the fall.

This *may be* implied because Superman 30 is being told from the perspective of Jon reading his dad's journal to him *after* Clark has already left "for what may be the final time".

[protege]

As far as I remember he never confirmed that he'd be writing through the fall. That was an assumption we as fans made based on him saying that he'd be the book for some months building towards the him just working on Action. The most he mentioned was this big summer status quo shift.

And from the sound of things Clark's only going to be on Earth for 4 issues after Son of Kal-El starts. This is because Superman & The Authority's solicitation says that it will end with stuff that spins out into Son of Superman and Action and be the new status quo going forward. And that book is 4 issues long, so that ends right at the start of the fall.

Plus, that's not even getting into the fact that Son of Kal-El may take place after Superman & The Authority and Action, and the two will catch up in the fall.

This *may be* implied because Superman 30 is being told from the perspective of Jon reading his dad's journal to him *after* Clark has already left "for what may be the final time".

I’m kinds of hoping Superman and the authority becomes a regular series.

[Robotman]

I can see New Coke, I mean Jon having this series for a year or two and then DC hyping the return of Clark as Superman.