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  1. #2461
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Taylors Jon has not even been close to a fun personality. It would make sense that a child has some of his mothers traits. Its not mandatory, just sensible. He has no distinct or unique character traits. This coming from someone who loved Jon and was okay with him becoming the next Superman. I was genuinely excited about Taylors run and take. Conceptually it sounded great. But in execution, Jon has been a complete bore. All he is at the moment is a more vanilla Clark redux. Simply having him be more of a social activist is not a distinct personality. That's not how you write a character to last.
    I don't understand this reply. Are you agree with me? Disagreeing with me? Because, yeah, I think Taylor's Jon is not good at all. But I think the tapestry of takes that Jon has had over the years does in fact make for a great character that no one seems to be writing at the moment.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  2. #2462
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Jon as he is now is just the epitome of Mediocre he's in the same boat as Tim Drake only defined by sexuality & relationships with other characters he's not valued by himself. And Tom Taylor has done nothing to change that making the 1st twink he sees his BF is not all that.

  3. #2463
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Jon as he is now is just the epitome of Mediocre he's in the same boat as Tim Drake only defined by sexuality & relationships with other characters he's not valued by himself. And Tom Taylor has done nothing to change that making the 1st twink he sees his BF is not all that.
    This is specifically why I found so many of the arguments about his changes to be inherently wrongheaded. All I got were "but he won't be able to grow up with Damian. But he was Damian's one normal friend. But he was allowed Damian to express a different side of himself." Or all of that but replace it with Clark. Or better yet, how about all of the times it was argued back that Jon "represented" seeing Superman through a child's eyes. This is something perpetuated by the fans who argued by with those opinions. No wonder DC just decided to keep on that trajectory.

    That line of thinking doesn't make up a character. It makes up a general assortment of requirements in the shape of a character.

    But he's still new, and no one ever actually remembers the specifics of a Tom Taylor comic book run, because a Tom Taylor comic book run is made for Twitter captions, memes, and headlines. It's there to do a job, and that's exposure. It's doing that. Just have to wait till someone with something to actually say gets on the mic and spits.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #2464
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Yeah if you’re arguing current Jon is someone who exists in reference to others, I’m not sure how you can advocate for the return of kid Jon. Kid Jon was supporting character material at best, he existed in reference to other people. He was there to be Damian’s best friend and Clark’s son but he wasn’t a character in and of itself with an actual character arc. Which does make CW Jon an accurate adaption come to think of it since he exists to facilitate Jordan’s development lol.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  5. #2465
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Which does make CW Jon an accurate adaption come to think of it since he exists to facilitate Jordan’s development lol.
    Ha!

    But truthfully, the CW Jon is more of a well defined character than they've ever allowed comic Jon most of the time. It's just that CW Jon is...in a completely different show that we're not allowed to see.

    If I could do it all over I'd honestly not let Jon get his powers till he's about 16 or 17...but I'd still have him sneak out with Damian, know that his dad is Superman, and try to be a hero in his own little dinky right. Then one day it finally happens-- he gets his power, and life kicks into overdrive.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #2466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    This is specifically why I found so many of the arguments about his changes to be inherently wrongheaded. All I got were "but he won't be able to grow up with Damian. But he was Damian's one normal friend. But he was allowed Damian to express a different side of himself." Or all of that but replace it with Clark. Or better yet, how about all of the times it was argued back that Jon "represented" seeing Superman through a child's eyes. This is something perpetuated by the fans who argued by with those opinions. No wonder DC just decided to keep on that trajectory.

    That line of thinking doesn't make up a character. It makes up a general assortment of requirements in the shape of a character.

    But he's still new, and no one ever actually remembers the specifics of a Tom Taylor comic book run, because a Tom Taylor comic book run is made for Twitter captions, memes, and headlines. It's there to do a job, and that's exposure. It's doing that. Just have to wait till someone with something to actually say gets on the mic and spits.
    I disagree regarding Taylors runs, he has his weaknesses but he also has his strengths. He has told some pretty strong stories and Nightwing, while again not perfect, has been pretty strong and shown great characterization.

    In regards to Jon, I guess I am confused as to what the point your making is. You said there is a fun character in there and I agree that as a concept he is sound, he has just shown no personality and has been 100% bland since his age up. Out of curiosity, what stories highlight the character to you? What would you recommend to a new reader you are trying to get to be a Jon fan? To my knowledge there has not been anything character defining since he was 10.

    Again more Lois make sense, he is her son. Whether you admit it or not, much of Jon`s allure is based on his connection to other characters. He is the son of Superman. It`s only sensible that they also embrace the Lane aspects of him as well. Especially sense those were do more to show how he is a very different kind of Superman.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-26-2022 at 04:46 PM.

  7. #2467
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Out of curiosity, what stories highlight the character to you?
    The first arc of Super Sons, the Super Sons arc where they team up with the Titans for the first time, Bendis' Man of Steel, and Legion And even then it's only a hand full of moments that really hit the mark and dig into what makes him a deceptively fascinating character. Legion especially had something really great brewing in it, but was cut off at the legs by behind the scenes shifts, so he's left with a strong start and the embers of something defining, but a weak finish. Incidentally, Legion is also the only time he's not defined by those around him. No one was close enough to him (even Saturn Girl and Mon-El) to act as that direct reflection, so-- ironically-- it was the one time he had the chance to really branch out.

    Beyond that he's mostly just been fine but largely defined by the people around him. And now he's largely defined by Jay to the point where Jay's story is actually the true driving force of the book.

    Again more Lois make sense, he is her son. Whether you admit it or not, much of Jon`s allure is based on his connection to other characters. He is the son of Superman. It`s only sensible that they also embrace the Lane aspects of him as well. Especially sense those were do more to show how he is a very different kind of Superman.
    You're jumping to conclusions in regards to what I mean by saying that adding in more Lois is not the way to fix him. I don't discredit her as his mother or an inspiration of his, but simply pasting on characteristics that she has onto him doesn't make for a good character. There are more subtle and impactful ways to highlight what he got from her, and they're already present within his character, but just not as trite as "oh well, he's a little sassy" or something so surface level. Regardless of what some may think, kids aren't just a 50/50 mix of two people. They take in the input of their surroundings and people that raise them and spit out something totally specific to them.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #2468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    The first arc of Super Sons, the Super Sons arc where they team up with the Titans for the first time, Bendis' Man of Steel, and Legion And even then it's only a hand full of moments that really hit the mark and dig into what makes him a deceptively fascinating character. Legion especially had something really great brewing in it, but was cut off at the legs by behind the scenes shifts, so he's left with a strong start and the embers of something defining, but a weak finish. Incidentally, Legion is also the only time he's not defined by those around him. No one was close enough to him (even Saturn Girl and Mon-El) to act as that direct reflection, so-- ironically-- it was the one time he had the chance to really branch out.

    Beyond that he's mostly just been fine but largely defined by the people around him. And now he's largely defined by Jay to the point where Jay's story is actually the true driving force of the book.



    You're jumping to conclusions in regards to what I mean by saying that adding in more Lois is not the way to fix him. I don't discredit her as his mother or an inspiration of his, but simply pasting on characteristics that she has onto him doesn't make for a good character. There are more subtle and impactful ways to highlight what he got from her, and they're already present within his character, but just not as trite as "oh well, he's a little sassy" or something so surface level. Regardless of what some may think, kids aren't just a 50/50 mix of two people. They take in the input of their surroundings and people that raise them and spit out something totally specific to them.
    Got it. I am not saying just paste on 50% of her character traits. But realistically, he would share some. As a character, a huge part of what defines him are is parents. Never read Legion, but I was a fan of Super Sons. That was the last time I found Jon interesting. My understanding was that Bendis Legion was no well received, in particular Jon.

    So my question being, what personality traits since the age up does he exhibit. Other than positive good guy, what traits has he had? Not plot point wise, but personality wise, what did the Bendis version exhibit that Taylors doesn`t?

  9. #2469
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Got it. I am not saying just paste on 50% of her character traits. But realistically, he would share some. As a character, a huge part of what defines him are is parents.
    You're not understanding that I don't disagree with that, but just that the way those traits are expressed would and should be different because he's a different person.

    So my question being, what personality traits since the age up does he exhibit. Other than positive good guy, what traits has he had? Not plot point wise, but personality wise, what did the Bendis version exhibit that Taylors doesn`t?
    That's a longer and more nuanced conversation than I feel like having on here these days. But to sum it up (while still being pretty long), Bendis' Jon in Legion was kind of a fun little dip shit who also happened to be charismatic enough to the people around him that they'd let him slide on stuff they probably shouldn't. And on top of that he maintained this sense of awe and wonder, and had a willingness to try new things. He'd also just flat out ignore rules in a way that wasn't like very rebellious, but rather just adorably flippant, and as stated before he'd just hope a combination of his strength and charm could get him out on top. He was a character that didn't think ahead more than one move, but had so much faith in himself and the people around him that it would be enough.

    One of the most inspired aspects of that run is the fact even though Jon was asked to the future for this great and important reason, and he should've totally spent more time training and what not...he spends the vast majority of his time seeing the sights, kissing his girlfriend, and eating cool alien food. It's so unique and special that viewed that time as his actual college years. And it's an idea Bendis gives a voice to when Jon tells his dad that he doesn't want to go to normal school anymore.

    Bendis' Jon took the line between Superman/Superboy and his "normal" life and did away with it. Again, an idea that is given voice when Jon tells Clark that he doesn't see the point of a secret identity.

    So when you fast forward to Taylor's super stiff and joyless take that yearns for a "normal" life and is sheepish about everything, it's total whiplash.

    Edit: Benids' Jon was the kid at the college party who can't dance to save his life, but is the first one on the floor leading the dace. Taylor's Jon is the kid at the party who can't dance...and has decided to sit over to the side for the reminder of the night refilling drinks or some other lame shit like that.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 01-26-2022 at 06:05 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  10. #2470
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    I was replying to someone, but it kinda got away from me so its open to everyone now.

    If it looks like a character, walks like a character, and talks like a character, they are a character. Just because Jon hadn't fully developed as a character in some people's eyes doesn't mean he wasn't a viable enough character to stick around as is. Yes, Jon upon his introduction was basically "Clark Jr." But who else was he supposed to be? If given enough time, we would've been allowed to tell a more diverse amount of Jon stories that would've shed this bland reputation that he's been saddled with.

    What a lot of people can't seem to understand is that "Jon is just Clark Jr." was just a seed, a starting point, a basic premise simple enough that it's good on its own in the short run but also leaves room for future expansion and development, that was planted in the fertile soil of Rebirth. Trees don't grow overnight and neither do characters. By the end of Jon's first two years, he had barely sprouted above the soil but was developed enough to have really resonated with fans. Super Sons of Tomorrow felt every bit the conclusion to the emotional arc the Super Sons had been on since they first teamed up two years ago, and that was just their first arc. People were excited to see more from the Super Sons, in both singles- and tag-team competition, to borrow a metaphor from pro wrestling.

    It wasn't unreasonable at the time to think in no more than five years after his debut that, if given that time to have more stories written about him and develop him further, Jon would eventually get his own solo book where he was finally on his own For The First Time EverTM. A book dedicated all to him and give him that alleged oh-so-needed character development (even though he would have had at most five years of character development that justified giving him a solo in the first place).

    By the end of those five years, Jon would've been reasonably "developed" enough to satisfy even the biggest skeptics of his character and warrant finally giving him a solo book. Combined with what was supposed to be three more years of character development for him, people would no longer see him as Clark Jr. but finally as Jon Kent, Superboy. If Jon hadn't been aged up but still got a solo book that was announced and released on the same day as SSoK was, people would've considered that late but inevitable.

    What I don't understand is this impatience so many people have with Jon as a character. Like, did you expect him to pop out of Convergence with a complete character bio and history? It takes time to develop those things, so of course you're not going to see Jon bear fruit after just two years. He had barely gotten started as character (and what a start it was) before they just slapped the reset button and still haven't justified doing so so early into Jon's existence and lifespan as character. I mean, look at him. DC has stunted his growth and they refuse to acknowledge that they even did anything to him.

  11. #2471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    You're not understanding that I don't disagree with that, but just that the way those traits are expressed would and should be different because he's a different person.



    That's a longer and more nuanced conversation than I feel like having on here these days. But to sum it up (while still being pretty long), Bendis' Jon in Legion was kind of a fun little dip shit who also happened to be charismatic enough to the people around him that they'd let him slide on stuff they probably shouldn't. And on top of that he maintained this sense of awe and wonder, and had a willingness to try new things. He'd also just flat out ignore rules in a way that wasn't like very rebellious, but rather just adorably flippant, and as stated before he'd just hope a combination of his strength and charm could get him out on top. He was a character that didn't think ahead more than one move, but had so much faith in himself and the people around him that it would be enough.

    One of the most inspired aspects of that run is the fact even though Jon was asked to the future for this great and important reason, and he should've totally spent more time training and what not...he spends the vast majority of his time seeing the sights, kissing his girlfriend, and eating cool alien food. It's so unique and special that viewed that time as his actual college years. And it's an idea Bendis gives a voice to when Jon tells his dad that he doesn't want to go to normal school anymore.

    Bendis' Jon took the line between Superman/Superboy and his "normal" life and did away with it. Again, an idea that is given voice when Jon tells Clark that he doesn't see the point of a secret identity.

    So when you fast forward to Taylor's super stiff and joyless take that yearns for a "normal" life and is sheepish about everything, it's total whiplash.

    Edit: Benids' Jon was the kid at the college party who can't dance to save his life, but is the first one on the floor leading the dace. Taylor's Jon is the kid at the party who can't dance...and has decided to sit over to the side for the reminder of the night refilling drinks or some other lame shit like that.
    Yeah that sounds better. Have not read it but at least he sounds like he developed a personality more suitable to the kid from Super Sons.

    I prefer Clark to have a secret identity. Could not care less about Jon having one.

  12. #2472
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Yeah that sounds better. Have not read it but at least he sounds like he developed a personality more suitable to the kid from Super Sons.
    I genuinely think it was. It just needed more room to breath and make itself more obvious.

    I prefer Clark to have a secret identity. Could not care less about Jon having one.
    I think that's the thing that Bendis really hit upon when he let out the identity while building Jon the way he did. You as a reader really care for Clark's secret identity because Clark himself spent decades convincing himself and you that he needed it, so when he got rid of it it was big. But-- and this is the difference between writing a character as a reflection or foil and writing a character as a different person-- Bendis planted the seeds for why Jon just inherently wouldn't be that worried about his, and would rather he just always face the world as himself.

    There's a few moments where Jon constantly engorges the rest of his family to just roll with the strangeness of their family, and you can tell he loves it in a way that Clark is still not super comfortable with. It makes Jon an inherently flexible and chill person. And the best part is that he'd often boil down these strange situations to something relatable like calling his space adventures with Jor-El a fun summer trip. This is indirectly contrasted by how Clark found it so hard to live in spate homes with Lois even though he can be next to her in the blink of an eye. It's also a point towards why Lois and Jon are alike without being so obvious about it.

    I could honestly go on. And it really upsets me that as soon as Taylor's run starts he has Jon lamenting about not having normal friends or going to normal school or not being able to get away from his fame. It makes for such a stiff and basic character. It's like Harry Potter finishing school and saying he wants to got to normal college now and become an accountant. How dumb does that sound?
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  13. #2473
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah if you’re arguing current Jon is someone who exists in reference to others, I’m not sure how you can advocate for the return of kid Jon. Kid Jon was supporting character material at best, he existed in reference to other people. He was there to be Damian’s best friend and Clark’s son but he wasn’t a character in and of itself with an actual character arc. Which does make CW Jon an accurate adaption come to think of it since he exists to facilitate Jordan’s development lol.
    People don't get it.entertainment is the name of the game..If you don't entertain you can be superman still suck.Side character or no side character..Jon's super sons adventure beats any.CW jon is boring as well.Not because he doesn't get to punch.But, because he doesn't have an normal adventure .Were is his conflict?where is jon fighting some guy in class who picks on the weak?where is him failing exam and but still refusing to cheat?
    Edit-Anyways,i don't think it's particulary unsalvagable.Let the time luchadores come..
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-26-2022 at 07:48 PM.
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  14. #2474
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I genuinely think it was. It just needed more room to breath and make itself more obvious.



    I think that's the thing that Bendis really hit upon when he let out the identity while building Jon the way he did. You as a reader really care for Clark's secret identity because Clark himself spent decades convincing himself and you that he needed it, so when he got rid of it it was big. But-- and this is the difference between writing a character as a reflection or foil and writing a character as a different person-- Bendis planted the seeds for why Jon just inherently wouldn't be that worried about his, and would rather he just always face the world as himself.

    There's a few moments where Jon constantly engorges the rest of his family to just roll with the strangeness of their family, and you can tell he loves it in a way that Clark is still not super comfortable with. It makes Jon an inherently flexible and chill person. And the best part is that he'd often boil down these strange situations to something relatable like calling his space adventures with Jor-El a fun summer trip. This is indirectly contrasted by how Clark found it so hard to live in spate homes with Lois even though he can be next to her in the blink of an eye. It's also a point towards why Lois and Jon are alike without being so obvious about it.

    I could honestly go on. And it really upsets me that as soon as Taylor's run starts he has Jon lamenting about not having normal friends or going to normal school or not being able to get away from his fame. It makes for such a stiff and basic character. It's like Harry Potter finishing school and saying he wants to got to normal college now and become an accountant. How dumb does that sound?
    The Byrne take of “Superman is just a guy who would rather be pitching hay on the farm than being Superman” which is supposed to be realistic and relatable but isn’t, because who the hell would rather be living on a farm in the ass end of nowhere than flying through the most advanced city on Earth and having everyone treat you with awe?
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    You're not understanding that I don't disagree with that, but just that the way those traits are expressed would and should be different because he's a different person.



    That's a longer and more nuanced conversation than I feel like having on here these days. But to sum it up (while still being pretty long), Bendis' Jon in Legion was kind of a fun little dip shit who also happened to be charismatic enough to the people around him that they'd let him slide on stuff they probably shouldn't. And on top of that he maintained this sense of awe and wonder, and had a willingness to try new things. He'd also just flat out ignore rules in a way that wasn't like very rebellious, but rather just adorably flippant, and as stated before he'd just hope a combination of his strength and charm could get him out on top. He was a character that didn't think ahead more than one move, but had so much faith in himself and the people around him that it would be enough.

    One of the most inspired aspects of that run is the fact even though Jon was asked to the future for this great and important reason, and he should've totally spent more time training and what not...he spends the vast majority of his time seeing the sights, kissing his girlfriend, and eating cool alien food. It's so unique and special that viewed that time as his actual college years. And it's an idea Bendis gives a voice to when Jon tells his dad that he doesn't want to go to normal school anymore.

    Bendis' Jon took the line between Superman/Superboy and his "normal" life and did away with it. Again, an idea that is given voice when Jon tells Clark that he doesn't see the point of a secret identity.

    So when you fast forward to Taylor's super stiff and joyless take that yearns for a "normal" life and is sheepish about everything, it's total whiplash.

    Edit: Benids' Jon was the kid at the college party who can't dance to save his life, but is the first one on the floor leading the dace. Taylor's Jon is the kid at the party who can't dance...and has decided to sit over to the side for the reminder of the night refilling drinks or some other lame shit like that.
    I never read Legion before Bendis and you're right about how Bendis wrote Jon during period but for my part, I think I was drawn more to other characters more because he had them do stuff or show more "fire" if you get my drift instead of just drifting because it's what was expected and I know this upset a lot of the pre-Bendis fans but I never could get it before I had no pre-existing notion of what to expect. I'm one of the few people that was bummed when the book was cut short because I do think some of his stuff was just inspired and wanted to see more of it. I walked away loving Rokk and Lightning Lass the most (I wanted to read more of them than the others) and even liked Triplicate Girl. One of the things that characterised how I felt about Jon during this time was that there simply wasn't enough of him to stand out above the other Legionnaires. He wasn't making his mark but was drowning in a sea of other characters and just when Bendis was finally getting to showcasing Jon and why he was there in the first place with Rogal Zaar, it all went poof! so I couldn't even enjoy that. I don't even remember it now which is a shame.

    Jon has so much potential, it's practically astronomical but DC is screwing him over right now.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 01-27-2022 at 12:45 AM.

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