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  1. #1036
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am not saying jon should nor was i complaing about the fact that he doesn't.i am just saying precisely that jon has'nt done anything to worry as of yet.
    I know exactly what you're saying, and I addressed it in my post. He's building up to that because Jon's starting from a position of what he's learned from his dad. This works as both character exploration and a good way to leave the new reader on familiar ground to later move into uncharted waters. They're coming in with already ingrained notions about what Superman does and means, and this opening presents that, shows its flaws, shows that Jon doesn't agree, but is conflicted because it's what he knows, and lights the small spark that will lead him and the reader away from that style of thinking. Again, it's new reader friendly, and it's character driven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Seems to be doing well on ComiXology:

    Attachment 111999
    Das mah boy! Ya just love ta see it
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  2. #1037
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I do think that perhaps instead of issue 1, it should’ve been an issue 0 the same way that I Am Batman is getting, since it’s mainly a prologue to the real issue 1 which got moved to issue 2. But it doesn’t seem to have hurt reviews or sales any so what do I know?
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  3. #1038
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I do think that perhaps instead of issue 1, it should’ve been an issue 0 the same way that I Am Batman is getting, since it’s mainly a prologue to the real issue 1 which got moved to issue 2. But it doesn’t seem to have hurt reviews or sales any so what do I know?
    I agree even if that's kind of semantics (what's #0 mean to #1 when you'll still be reading one before the other?). Dispenser of Truth said as much in his breakdown.

    But I also think we're primarily coming at it from the POV of vets who are on here talking this thing into oblivion. Say whatever you want about Taylor, he knew what this issue had to be to check off a bunch of boxes for lapsed Superman fans, new Superman fans, and new comic readers in general. He made it simple, character driven, and played off only the most general assumptions one would have of Superman-- any Superman.

    Issue #2 will likely have something more to chew on, but even then I don't expect to really dig in with the more ambitious concepts till 4 or 5. You know what this actually reads like, right? Something designed to be adapted. I bet Jon doesn't get his new suit or show off any new level of power till near the climax of the arc like you would any other origin movie/TV show/cartoon. The Legion suit may as well be Miles' Halloween costume and hoodie proto suit from Spider-Verse before he gets the real thing and goes off to save the city.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #1039
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I agree even if that's kind of semantics (what's #0 mean to #1 when you'll still be reading one before the other?). Dispenser of Truth said as much in his breakdown.

    But I also think we're primarily coming at it from the POV of vets who are on here talking this thing into oblivion. Say whatever you want about Taylor, he knew what this issue had to be to check off a bunch of boxes for lapsed Superman fans, new Superman fans, and new comic readers in general. He made it simple, character driven, and played off only the most general assumptions one would have of Superman-- any Superman.

    Issue #2 will likely have something more to chew on, but even then I don't expect to really dig in with the more ambitious concepts till 4 or 5. You know what this actually reads like, right? Something designed to be adapted. I bet Jon doesn't get his new suit or show off any new level of power till near the climax of the arc like you would any other origin movie/TV show/cartoon. The Legion suit may as well be Miles' Halloween costume and hoodie proto suit from Spider-Verse before he gets the real thing and goes off to save the city.
    Totally agree and said as much in my initial review. Taylor cut out all the superfluous continuity and gave an easy to understand starting status quo: Jon’s old, his dad is older, he has to replace his dad, but does that necessarily mean doing things the way his dad has? It’s an easy to hop on board and understand first issue, the only drawback I’d say is that Damian gets too much panel space telling Jon what to do, and Damian has the last word in this issue, when that really should’ve been Jon. We’ll see what issue 2 brings since that seems to be where Taylor will give us some hints towards the long term plan.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  5. #1040
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Totally agree and said as much in my initial review. Taylor cut out all the superfluous continuity and gave an easy to understand starting status quo: Jon’s old, his dad is older, he has to replace his dad, but does that necessarily mean doing things the way his dad has? It’s an easy to hop on board and understand first issue, the only drawback I’d say is that Damian gets too much panel space telling Jon what to do, and Damian has the last word in this issue, when that really should’ve been Jon. We’ll see what issue 2 brings since that seems to be where Taylor will give us some hints towards the long term plan.
    I agree on the Damian part, but I can't help but feel like it wouldn't have matter had Jon had any other normal human friends.

    The idea is to sort of frame Jon as even more of an alien than Clark was starting out. The analogy here is that Jon is effectively a sheltered child of privilege who is taking over business, but inherently feels like there's something off about how it's been run and the compromises that have been made to run it.

    And I think this is such a great way to go about it, because Damian points out Jon has no other friends or people to talk to his age that aren't related to him, and he's one of the most famous faces on the planet with no way of walking among people. Damian is similarly out of touch in some ways, but not to the degree of Jon (and as much is said), but that's why he needs to meet new normal people.

    All that to say, Taylor needed a best friend character who could call him on his sh!t, and let him know that there's more out there than he knows. It's just that it's coming from Damian, who is not just another hero but a Batman character, so it feels a bit off. But I just took it as his best friend.

    You also needed someone that wasn't Jon himself to end the issue off calling Jon Superman, so I get it.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #1041
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I bought and read the first issue today.

    I was lead to believe that Tom Taylor is a master of writing good material for bad premises. The good news is, this seems to be true - it's a well written issue. The really bad news is, it's still a bad premise.

    Jon is just his Dad in a lot of ways. His concerns about fighting the symptoms of injustice instead of the root causes, and his commitment to fighting the causes instead, are an endlessly good vibe for a Superman series. The problem is, it's also a vibe I've seen Kal tackle better. Including, on some occasions, literally in comics from the 1930s?

    And having Jon say "I'm going to fight the causes and not just the symptoms, unlike my dad," frankly just paints Kal-El himself in a vastly unfair and inaccurate light, compared to the best of what he can do. I had something of a similar concern with the Morrison issue, and the two can't help but go together in my mind, since I read them one after the other.
    Last edited by Adekis; 07-29-2021 at 11:39 PM.
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  7. #1042
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    And having Jon say "I'm going to fight the causes and not just the symptoms, unlike my dad," frankly just paints Kal-El himself in a vastly unfair and inaccurate light, compared to the best of what he can do. I had something of a similar concern with the Morrison issue, and the two can't help but go together in my mind, since I read them one after the other.
    But, like, be real for a second: that's largely Clark's MO.

    You can bring up anecdotal evidence that says otherwise, but for the vast majority of his publication and on screen life, Clark has been about "catching us when we fall" (as famously put by him in Morrison's JLA). This book, similar to the new readers/new comic readers, is drawing mainly from the collective assumptions/average Joe's understanding of Clark Kent. And of course every version of Clark has mused to himself about how he wished he could do more, but most of the time he talks himself out of it for fear of overstepping. Thus, the shift here is the fact that since Jon isn't just his father's son (he's Lois' son too) he's gonna learn more and see how far he can push it.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #1043
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I know exactly what you're saying, and I addressed it in my post. He's building up to that because Jon's starting from a position of what he's learned from his dad. This works as both character exploration and a good way to leave the new reader on familiar ground to later move into uncharted waters. They're coming in with already ingrained notions about what Superman does and means, and this opening presents that, shows its flaws, shows that Jon doesn't agree, but is conflicted because it's what he knows, and lights the small spark that will lead him and the reader away from that style of thinking. Again, it's new reader friendly, and it's character driven.
    Yes,i know.i was just explaining to @hizashi that he doesn't need to worry that jon has went of the rails or something like that.And that superman was always making statements.I do understand it is meant to be an arc.While keeping my problem with that guy who jon failed not being more focused as "jon's fall" aside. I do understand what taylor was doing.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  9. #1044
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I don't really understand what qualifies this being more of a #0 than #1? Thou to be honest I never really understood the point of #0 asides of when during New 52 we had "zero month". That to me made sense because we usually were going back to the origins of some character instead of going forward like with regular issues of the series. But releasing #0 and #1 one after another sounds like a pointless marketing gimmick to me and I'm glad that DC didn't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Seems to be doing well on ComiXology:

    Attachment 111999
    I checked Amazon's top superhero sellers and it was #50. There were no other single issues in the top 50. So first issue is probably doing okay.

  10. #1045
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I feel like some people are overlooking why Taylor decides to have other characters wax poetic about Jon's potential and how he could be even greater than his father, and Lois is the one who explains it. It's somewhat of a blink-and-you'll-miss-it line, but it's very much the point: "can we maybe wait until he's breathing outside of an amniotic sac before pushing unfair expectations on him?"

    And by the end of the issue it's addressing internal aspects about Jon that drive the external rather than the expectation dictating his actions. It's how he's different from Clark. It's how he needs to find time to himself to get a better look at himself. It's what HE wants the symbol to stand for rather than the expectation. And because Taylor decides to give Lois that line, I'm even more excited about her part in the book.

    I think it's a really solid way for new readers looking to dip their toes into what is assuredly going to be the central internal conflict and backbone of the whole book.
    Bingo. I'm kind of surprised that so many posters here are missing this, but I guess the diehards are so dug into their positions against the premise of Jon taking over as Superman, they can't see the forest for the trees

  11. #1046
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    It's seems to me the only reason Jon even has the opportunities he has to "step up" is because Post-Crisis Superman was such a god forsakenly bad Superman held down by writers who kept trying to limit his potential because the feared him on a conceptual level. If we didn't have the big brained modern writers trying to set Kal-El back to the stone age and ripping his mythos and personality apart to get him there what would there even be for someone like Jon who thus far is just regurgitating the greatest hits of Superman's own far superior Golden Age/ Silver Age writers.

    The Post-Crisis Superman was broguht back only for the writers to admit what anyone with eyes could see. The guy was a horrible Superman and always had been with writers that couldn't create anything worth a damn. Like why is this version of Superman given chance after chance after chance when he has quite literally nothing to do with anything Siegel or Shuster came up with. Siegel and Shuster were partners on Golden Age Superman and Siegel wrote the Silver Age Superman, but neither had anything to do with Post-Crisis Superman. What has this guy done but lower the meaning of what Superman stands for so that characters like his son can surpass him.
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  12. #1047
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    But honestly all things said I'm glad for the status quo shake ups. Maybe, just maybe this character can finally get out of the neutral gear the Post-Crisis writers have had him stuck in for decades. Jon can be Superman if it means Clark can finally grow up.
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

  13. #1048
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But, like, be real for a second: that's largely Clark's MO.

    You can bring up anecdotal evidence that says otherwise, but for the vast majority of his publication and on screen life, Clark has been about "catching us when we fall" (as famously put by him in Morrison's JLA). This book, similar to the new readers/new comic readers, is drawing mainly from the collective assumptions/average Joe's understanding of Clark Kent. And of course every version of Clark has mused to himself about how he wished he could do more, but most of the time he talks himself out of it for fear of overstepping. Thus, the shift here is the fact that since Jon isn't just his father's son (he's Lois' son too) he's gonna learn more and see how far he can push it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    It's seems to me the only reason Jon even has the opportunities he has to "step up" is because Post-Crisis Superman was such a god forsakenly bad Superman held down by writers who kept trying to limit his potential because the feared him on a conceptual level. If we didn't have the big brained modern writers trying to set Kal-El back to the stone age and ripping his mythos and personality apart to get him there what would there even be for someone like Jon who thus far is just regurgitating the greatest hits of Superman's own far superior Golden Age/ Silver Age writers.
    I feel like The World answered Superlad's critique for me, at least by half. The extent to which Kal's MO hasn't always straight up been the concept of in Jon's Brand New Mission Statement is a good amount because is that Superman hasn't always been written to live up to that potential (though I wouldn't necessarily single out post-Crisis to the exclusion of every other take). It is, however, that potential which has always been the character's core ideals.

    In his earliest appearances, Superman is said have "turned his titanic strength to channels that will benefit mankind," and in many stories from many eras, Clark Kent does the same thing, being no less a crusader for justice than Lois is, for all Taylor's decision to laud her influence as a major distinguishing factor between Jon and his dad.

    So why isn't Clark / Superman always Fighting For Change and Making a Difference, over the last eighty-three years? Because he's a cartoon character, my dudes. Because if he lives up to his true potential and fixes our broken world, it wouldn't be social commentary anymore, it'd just be speculative fiction. And that's gonna be equally as true for Jon. This is the elephant in the room here, we all know Jon isn't going to change the world either. Not in real life, not in any way that actually solves the problems Jon and Clark BOTH want to see solved.

    Will Jon's inevitable failure to change the real world from his comic book page result in Superman's grandson one day making the same critique of his father?

    Regardless of the impossibility of success, I like the stories where Superman tries to change the world, and I even like the few imaginary stories or alternate timelines where he succeeds, and I don't think it's unfair to want that history of the character acknowledged by Taylor, and Morrison, and by Jon and Kal.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  14. #1049
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/30/ex...n-of-kal-el-2/

    Issue 2 preview, looks like Jon tries a fake identity and then immediately botched it. Then it looks like Clark tries to comfort him and gives him his new costume.

    Oh and Lois spotted.
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  15. #1050
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Oh, yeah...college. Yeesh. He never even graduated middle school, but here come the future retcons.
    Last edited by garazza; 07-30-2021 at 09:57 AM.

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