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  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That’s partly why I’m not enthused about lots of Super Sons. I don’t want this to be Damian or any of the Batfamily, just telling Jon how to act. Taylor’s really bad at this, despite his proclaimed love of Superman he seems incapable of doing anything that doesn’t involve Batman showing up in some capacity of another. Also I’m just f****** sick of Batman being in everything Superman, there’s an entire book for that, the Superman books should focus on Superman and the Superfamily.
    The problem is that this is simply a reaction to one of the most frequent demands for Jon - Super Sons, more Supen Sons. Taylor usually does what the audience wants to see. For all my dislike for Bendis, he was partly right when he was openly annoyed about it.
    They'd really be better off just launch Super Sons ongoing and leaving their series to develop separately, without constant team-ups and cameos. Williamson does this with Robin, I hope Taylor will do it as well.

  2. #1022
    Fantastic Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Then there is no point to the whole thing..I vote for bibbo bibowski taking in jon..


    That's exactly what it lacked.That guy jon failed needs to matter..
    That'd be pretty cool. I'd like to see Bibbo in some way, shape, or form.

    College style road trip to the Ace O' Clubs, heh
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  3. #1023

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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    On one hand age up is bad because it makes him just like his father. On another hand, how dare you not make him identical to his father?
    It's the proverbial "damn if you do, damn if you don't" with Jon.

    I prefer him to be more different from his parents. If he's just a carbon copy of his parents it would be unappealing. Granted Jon is raised by his parents so some traits should pop up. I'm more nurture than nature.

    Ironically the timeskip could've helped because he would've spent 5+ years away from his parents. He would've developed a more defined personality without their input.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 07-29-2021 at 09:04 AM.

  4. #1024
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    The problem is that this is simply a reaction to one of the most frequent demands for Jon - Super Sons, more Supen Sons. Taylor usually does what the audience wants to see. For all my dislike for Bendis, he was partly right when he was openly annoyed about it.
    They'd really be better off just launch Super Sons ongoing and leaving their series to develop separately, without constant team-ups and cameos. Williamson does this with Robin, I hope Taylor will do it as well.
    I cackled when he fired that shot back

    And yeah Taylor is in an interesting place here because what he’s been tasked to do is at odds with his natural instinct to pander to Twitter and Reddit.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  5. #1025
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    This was definitely a trailer for the book to come, but it served it's point very well. My only real complaints are that Taylor cannot get over his love of jerking off Bruce even here and I'm more than a little tired of Jon being built up as the chosen one.

    I get his parents thinking he'll surpass them-- every parent thinks that of their kids so long as they're not assholes, but goddamn give it a rest.

    The art is outstanding and Taylor gives Jon a good voice that feels more himself than under Bendis.
    Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, a trailer. I couldn't agree more with your other two points.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #1026
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Critics love Taylor, God knows why. It’s a freaking 9.1 now, it went UP lmao. Taylor may not appeal to me but he definitely appeals to others, he’s got a fanbase.
    That's pretty ridiculous. Geez, those critics need to relax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That’s partly why I’m not enthused about lots of Super Sons. I don’t want this to be Damian or any of the Batfamily, just telling Jon how to act. Taylor’s really bad at this, despite his proclaimed love of Superman he seems incapable of doing anything that doesn’t involve Batman showing up in some capacity of another. Also I’m just f****** sick of Batman being in everything Superman, there’s an entire book for that, the Superman books should focus on Superman and the Superfamily.
    I'm fully onboard, Batman and his corner are bloated enough as it is. Let's give the Superman books their space.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  7. #1027
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I am seeing some people get mad about Jon replacing “The American Way” with “A Better World” which is amusing to me. Basically a bunch of people accusing Taylor of making Jon “woke” which is kind of hilarious.
    Well, I don't know about the woke stuff, but I personally have always loved "The American Way" bit. My parents are immigrants and my siblings and many of my cousins are the first generation of Americans in our families and I've always liked it, I guess it made me appreciate Superman in yet another way.

    I will say, I don't think it's terrible that Jon have his own thing, it doesn't erase Clark's. I'm more concerned about what "A Better World" will look like, because I know Jon means well but good intentions and all that.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  8. #1028
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Well, I don't know about the woke stuff, but I personally have always loved "The American Way" bit. My parents are immigrants and my siblings and many of my cousins are the first generation of Americans in our families and I've always liked it, I guess it made me appreciate Superman in yet another way.

    I will say, I don't think it's terrible that Jon have his own thing, it doesn't erase Clark's. I'm more concerned about what "A Better World" will look like, because I know Jon means well but good intentions and all that.
    American way just feels tacked on.. That's why i prefer it gone.Truth and justice was all there was.It's not that i mind it..

    You see,clark is just concerned..He can sit in a corner and be concerned.His prerogative.His action in inaction.You know guys need to actually do stuff.So,i would prefer jon taking action and enduring consequences than avoiding consequences in the name of "concern".It's cowardice.There is second guessing yourself or allowing the possibility that you are wrong.And then there is having no personality.Clark just has none.

    Also,jon has'nt done nearly enough the way clark did when he first introduced himself...
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-29-2021 at 07:18 PM.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  9. #1029
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    American way just feels tacked on.. That's why i prefer it gone.Truth and justice was all there was.It's not that i mind it..

    You see,clark is just concerned..He can sit in a corner and be concerned.His prerogative.His action in inaction.You know guys need to actually do stuff.So,i would prefer jon taking action and enduring consequences than avoiding consequences in the name of "concern".It's cowardice.There is second guessing yourself or allowing the possibility that you are wrong.And then there is having no personality.Clark just has none.

    Also,jon has'nt done nearly enough the way clark did when he first introduced himself...
    Hasn't "American Way" been a part of the line since the 50's radio show? Or the 70's? It's been a few decades at least right? Giving Jon his own iteration, which includes the original Truth and Justice isn't a bad thing, but how can removing American Way from Clark be a good thing?

    I'll take a Superman that saves the world from alien invasions and mad scientists and is largely non-interventionist over a Superman who must do something about all these problems and means well but is liable to make a mess of things. I don't think there's anything cowardly about Clark stepping in only when he has to and allowing societies to resolve their own economic/political issues.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  10. #1030
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Hasn't "American Way" been a part of the line since the 50's radio show? Or the 70's? It's been a few decades at least right? Giving Jon his own iteration, which includes the original Truth and Justice isn't a bad thing, but how can removing American Way from Clark be a good thing?

    I'll take a Superman that saves the world from alien invasions and mad scientists and is largely non-interventionist over a Superman who must do something about all these problems and means well but is liable to make a mess of things. I don't think there's anything cowardly about Clark stepping in only when he has to and allowing societies to resolve their own economic/political issues.
    They’ve never been consistent about including “The American Way” for a long time. DC even had Superman renounce his American citizenship Pre-Flashpoint. The reason why is that it’s something that either needs to constantly be readdressed and re-examined the way Steve Rogers is constantly re-examining what it means to be Captain America, or else it’s too vague and ambiguous a notion to really be accepted at face value anymore. What is “The American Way” after all and why is it a good thing? People have all sorts of different ideas of what it means and some of those aren’t good. PKJ says he wants to “reclaim” it and be more explicit about it standing for American ideals not American reality. He hasn’t done that yet, we’ll see if it comes into focus in future issues.

    But Clark’s original slogan was just Truth & Justice, and there was another variation of Truth, Justice, and Tolerance which Yang used recently in his Batman/Superman run. Both of those are just as good for me.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  11. #1031
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Bendis Legion sold well I guess? Bad books can sell well, bad books can have good things in them. Maybe that book turned it around in the end, but I dropped it after a handful of issues.

    I like him paired with Moxley; I'm not a regular viewer, haven't been for years, but if I watch something it's usually AEW. All of these rumors about Bryan and Punk have me excited though.
    They like like to pimp out the fact it sold around 30000, which I'd say is about average for most books, but is low for what DC expected for a Bendis book.

    I was a lapsed fan, but caught the wrestling bug again in college when NXT was the super-indie show, but I didn't watch any of WWE's main shows. I watch AEW every week, even their Youtube shows. I loved the dynamic between Eddie and Mox, the love and respect between men that have been fighters their entire lives. And yeah, Bryan and Punk just feel too good to be true. Man, that roster is just so stacked.

  12. #1032
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Hasn't "American Way" been a part of the line since the 50's radio show? Or the 70's? It's been a few decades at least right? Giving Jon his own iteration, which includes the original Truth and Justice isn't a bad thing, but how can removing American Way from Clark be a good thing?

    I'll take a Superman that saves the world from alien invasions and mad scientists and is largely non-interventionist over a Superman who must do something about all these problems and means well but is liable to make a mess of things. I don't think there's anything cowardly about Clark stepping in only when he has to and allowing societies to resolve their own economic/political issues.
    There are a lot of things from the 50s and 60s that can be kept or discarded.it's a subjective choice.The first-time clark was putting the "american way" symbols was in the cover of 14 written by Siegel.And i believe the radio show coined it.As said,i don't think they would have minded it.but,how can superman be part of anywhich way?when the guy himself isn't much of an oustanding citizen..He is at the end of the day an outlaw(their characterisation of superman).On top of that,superman was and is being used for propaganda when having it same as removing it.if your problem is politics in comics.It's just superman ain't making the same statement he did in 60s and 70s..Removing it atleast means superman is an independent agent.

    I am for creator's choice on property.i am firmly of the mind that siegel and shuster did support the american's and alied forces during the war.That being a long term statement of nationalism or worse jingoism was not.

    Yeah! He is preachy about that too(alien invasions and mad scientists).As said,No personality what's so ever Mr jesus.The guy hasn't been entertaining with all the paternalistic "thou shall" nonsense.I would take superman as action hero if there was stakes,good action,great scifi concept/philosophy..etc.Not boring lectures about" i am so good... everyone should be like me" nonsense and moral grandstanding.Here's a news flash, the guy ain't better than you,me or anyone in the crowd. .As said,he is part of the society.Making a mess is part of being human.As said,deal with good or bad consequences.Like us normal folks do.Think up solutions and try acting it out.superman had the moral courage to make mess once upon a time ,to take hitler and stalin by their neck

    Superman hasn't produced a good action series since max fliescher cartoons.Tas was all over the place with some good moments.It was mediocre series to bad and nothing close to batman tas or heck!batman beyond.That death of superman movie had some long duration of fights.But,nothing too noteworthy.Superman sucks as an entertainer..You know why shonen battle serie work(your question in one piece thread?luffy makes a mess btw)cause there is some bonkers action.Superman is just a flying bland brick and villains are made bland as well.meanwhile,We are gonna get a series about a guy with chainsaw for head.we had a stories about super alien parasytes.stuff like that.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-29-2021 at 10:29 PM.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  13. #1033
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Just jumping in really quick to say that the reason Jon isn't going against the government, removing dictators, and upsetting people in charge in issue #1 is because, well, it's issue #1, the point being made here is that we need to see where he is emotionally starting from before we see the change.

    Not only is this simple character work 101, but it's required as a way to get newer readers to get the character and what he's about.

    What the issue does is that it presents Jon handling things somewhat similar to his father as a baseline...and we get inside his head and realize that this didn't feel right to him, but he doesn't know an outlet for these emotions. He's living up to a legacy, and that's a weight on him, but, as Damian points out, he's a Superman who doesn't have to fight the symptoms, but rather can be the cure.

    As we know going forward Jon will end up doing stuff that will piss off some dangerous and important people, and he'll meet up with a group that will expand his horizons on what's possible as Superman and what he could be thinking about solving. But in order to do that he's actually going to need to unlearn quite a bit of what Clark and the current superhero culture have instilled in him even though he respects where they're coming from.

    And I like that it's a emotional journey of self discovery rather than a light switch. Even though I'm ultimately a big fan of the age up, I can't lie and act like Jon's life hasn't been moving a mile a minute ever since. This character study and breathing room is exactly what he needs, and it's even better that it's charging towards the goal of being a Superman who's about change.

    _________

    I keep comparing this to Injustice because Taylor has do so, so in that sprit, Injustice Clark didn't just outright turn into the guy who burned a hole in Billy Batson's head and took over the world overnight. In Taylor's hands he moved you through every step, every moral compromise, and every "it's for the greater good" moment till Clark was the man we saw in that first game. And I expect something similar with Jon, but obviously in the opposite direction. It's how Taylor turned your average Superman Goes Bad story into a best selling HBO-like action drama about the rise of a tyrant.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #1034
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Seems to be doing well on ComiXology:

    9F39E590-7C2E-40E9-96DC-06CE975A9597.jpg
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  15. #1035
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I am not saying jon should nor was i complaing about the fact that he doesn't.i am just saying precisely that jon has'nt done anything to worry as of yet.Heck!he didn't even do stuff his dad did back in action comics #1.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

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