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  1. #946
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Don’t let the door hit you on your way out
    Oh I'm not going anywhere. But still, I just gotta know...why do you always insist on being a complete ass to every person who disagrees with you? Especially when you would have literally been just as hostile to people on the opposite side just a week or two ago. Are you just incapable of being civil? Is it always just zero to 100 with you? I assume most people here are grown and capable of sharing what they think without attacking someone else. So why not act like it?
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-27-2021 at 12:24 PM.

  2. #947
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Don’t let the door hit you on your way out
    No need to be rude to him my guy.

  3. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Don’t let the door hit you on your way out
    No need for this. Plus, Blue22 specifically said they are giving Taylor two more issues to hook them. Read better :-)

  4. #949
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    No need for this. Plus, Blue22 specifically said they are giving Taylor two more issues to hook them. Read better :-)
    Even if he did read it incorrectly its not like dude was even addressing him to begin with so that hostile energy from other dude is really unnecessary.

  5. #950
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    Okay, read the thing. Notes below while re-reading:

    • Having Jon’s captioned thoughts bear the classic Superman crest (not his personal crest that is on his suit, but THE Superman crest) is, more than anything else here, what made me go “holy shit, this guy is Superman”.
    • We’re meant to focus on the idea that what makes this the best day of Clark’s life is Jon being born, but the way it’s phrased I like the idea that at least Jon (if not Clark too) consider these types of galactic invasions something to have fun with.
    • This impression also changes the impression of that opening scene a bit from “the savior’s friends making sure the savior is able to attend the birth of his son” to “this goddamn workaholic’s friends put on an intervention so the guy has no excuse not to be there”.
    • I like the contrast between Clark initially referring to Bruce as “Batman” in a moment where he’s clearly defensive only to change it to Bruce after said caped crusader gets a bit more emotionally open (and isn’t it a pleasant surprise for Bruce to be the one to de-escalate any possible tension by being emotionally open and mature).
    • Character shilling from Diana and later Bruce. I wrote about that before, so simply mentioning it here.
    • Love the tear in Lois’ eye as she greets her son.
    • Batman literally huffing as Diana is calling him out for being shady is pretty great, both as a sign of how ashamed and unashamed he is and to point out how affected he’s by the cold while Diana’s clearly just putting on a thin jacket for the sake of it.
    • Lots of no-face syndrome in the fire sequence, even on characters you’d think they would want to humanize as much as possible.
    • The scene cut between the calm of the birth sequence and the panic of the fire sequence is pretty great.
    • “Faster than fate. As powerful as hope. Able to lift us all.” Holy shit, they’re making him even more messianic than his father from his very inception. This… this could be a big problem. Not just because of how rote the Jesus parallels are (even if they make a bit more sense than they ever did for Clark), but because it’s putting what makes a lot of people believe that Superman is hard to write (namely, that they feel the need to tell a “meaningful”, “culturally significant” story with him instead of just having some fun with the concept) right at the center of the Jon-Kent-as-Superman concept.
    • The “Action Comics #1 cover reference” here is Jon stopping that missile.
    • My previous complain about no-face syndrome aside, the dehumanized-to-humanized portrayal of the guy on fire is on-point.
    • Jon’s hands in the panel where he introduces himself to the guy on fire look terrible.
    • On the other hand, Jon and the guy on fire (he really needed a name to complete the dehumanized-to-humanized deal) embracing looks really great.
    • Bowing down to the government (not the military, explicitly the government) as Jon’s big moment of shame from which he must grow is an inspired choice.
    • The ninja complaining about fair fights right after he tried to jump Superman (not Robin, he was attacking Superman) is pretty funny.
    • Damian immediately going “there’s nothing heroic about serving the status quo” is… pretty jarring. Like, you get how it’s connected to everything else, but it’s that slightest bit further from the natural “you don’t want to serve a shady government” to still sound a little unnatural despite making sense. Like they skipped a line or two there.
    • Damian’s clearly been thinking a lot about what his best friend should do as a superhero. I wasn’t expecting him to be the one to introduce us to the Truth organization. That… bugs me a little, because I’d rather Jon was the one to come across and “discover” that one instead of being referred to it by a friend.
    • “Truth, Justice and a Better World” was so much better as an isolated, contextless panel, where it sounded like a triumph and a promise after careful deliberation. Here, it’s in the context of Jon being unsure, and it sounds so rehearsed and definite that it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the scene. The whole panel is too triumphant, as demonstrated by it immediately being followed by an awkward “I just want to help”.
    • Finishing it by having Damian state the thesis of this run is skirting too close to the whole “Superman with no personal agency following other people’s dreams” that has plagued other takes on Superman.

    Overall, like Taylor’s Nightwing, there’s a lot here I like but it also pushes things just that slightest bit further where it starts to bug me.

  6. #951
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Like fathers like sons



    You know I think Iíd personally be irritated a little if my best friend just hovered there while I fought off Ninjas. I know Damianís got this and Jon helps a bit but Iím not sure Iíd appreciate it. Kind of like someone bothering me while Iím at the gym.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  7. #952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Clarkís has been resistant to change outside of ďwhat if he were EVILLLL?Ē stories. I mean hell look at how we ended up here: they murdered the New 52 Superman to replace him with the Byrne guy as written by Dan Jurgens one of the architects of the Triangle Era. Rebirth was as big of a throwback as you can get. And people were not happy about a lot of the recent changes, such as Clark outing himself. Lots of fans would love to roll everything back yet again.
    I believe the lawsuit theory. I think DC Comics never intended for the New52 to last long as it did. Morrison's AC run lasted from 2011-2013. 2013, that's when the lawsuit ended (according to wikipedia). Rebirth happened in 2016, when WB won their court case in the 9th circuit. Perhaps DC Comics was allowed to return to "normal" when they knew they had the victory over Siegel' heirs. It also explains why there was very little New52 in TV shows and movies. Aside from the animated movies, but they're mostly a niche.

    What do you consider ďtoo farĒ? Because for some itís Superman interfering at all with human affairs aside from protecting people. Jon is not going to abide by that per Taylor, and even in the interviews the whole pitch isnít that Jon will be a chip off the old block, but thatís heís going to push the limits. He isnít as mature as Clark, he isnít as hands off, he isnít as set in his ways, and heís going to anger people (with the implicit message being some readers will be upset as well). Iím sure some people will be angry because Taylor is a left-wing guy and thatís definitely going to show itself with regards to Jon tackling climate change.
    Like you stated, fans don't like Superman having an edge. Fans still want Jon to be de-aged back to 10 and have adventures with Damian as the Super Sons. DC knows they're walking a fine line. You can have Jon pushing to change the world, that's standard for Superman.

    Iím honestly shocked because Taylor did write Jon as being Clark Jr. in DCeased, and I did think he was going to do that here. But heís saying he wonít. Weíll see if he actually lives up to that.
    Perhaps not Taylor, but once he's off the book? That's up in the air. However, Jon has been Clark Jr. for a long time now, if you ask me. Bendis with Saturn Girl. Yara and Future State. I also think Jon has a friend who had a crush on him back during rebirth. I also think she was a red-head too.

    Could they do all of this with Clark in an Elseworld? Of course and they have at times. But not in the mainline outside of Morrison and Pakís Action runs. The potential here is that if Taylor succeeds, THIS is going to be the baseline for who Jon is as a character, which means they canít revert him back like they do with Clark.
    We'll see as the book progresses. Anyways, like I stated. They both serve the same function. What's canon is arbitrary anyways. DC has never had a system to determine it. Kingdom Come is an elseworld, but was brought into the mainline many times. Trying to say what Clark can't do as Superman is ridiculous and has limited what Superman can do.

  8. #953
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    I believe the lawsuit theory. I think DC Comics never intended for the New52 to last long as it did. Morrison's AC run lasted from 2011-2013. 2013, that's when the lawsuit ended (according to wikipedia).
    Pak continued to write pretty much same Superman as Morrison so 2013 date is not really relevant I'd say.

  9. #954
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    I had wanted to completely boycott the book. I didn’t even want to pirate it so I could hate-read it, but I had the unfortunate displeasure of someone I follow on Tumblr post the Damian pages, so I read them and they didn’t completely ruin my day, but that shouldn’t be taken as a good thing or a bad thing.

    spoilers:
    My earlier complaint about Damian not sounding like Damian was addressed in that their conversation read a lot better and was much smoother when read in its entirety and not chopped up in a Bleeding Cool article.

    Still, Damian read as an editorial mouthpiece to put over the fact that Jon is Superman and there is nothing you can do about it (except voting with your wallet and not buying the book so it’ll have abysmal sales and force DC to choose between an unpopular creative decision allegedly forced on them from on high or just de-age him and go back to the thing they know still works and fans have been demanding). Some described the scene and their conversation as off, and I agree for two reasons. One, they just don’t have the same magic or chemistry between them like the once had. Nothing’s missing from them, but it just fell flat. Probably because it was serving an agenda and wasn’t natural banter.

    Two, it feels odd for the younger Damian to lecture the older Jon about modern politics and praxis. If Jon was a kid and was having similar issues about his place in the world and questions about what he should do and the more mature and knowledgeable Damian makes some similar statements about Jon being the one in charge of himself and what he does to make the world a better place, I think Taylor’s messaging would’ve hit a lot harder, and I mean a lot. I find Jon going from a school newspaper journalist to a student activist, like a Greta Thunberg-type, would’ve been a great arc and exactly what is needed today, but this book isn’t that.

    If only.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by garazza; 07-27-2021 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #955
    BANNED
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    Oh yes...the boycott that never worked for legion(selling 30,000 copies per issue)

  11. #956
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Oh yes...the boycott that never worked for legion(selling 30,000 copies per issue)
    That supposed to mean something?

  12. #957
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Most people complaining about Jon's age probably don't buy comics. I think speculators are gonna carry this book hard.

  13. #958
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    Most people complaining about Jon's age probably don't buy comics.
    That's thing to assume. Based on what, exactly?

  14. #959
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Wow, it's really here. I honestly still can't believe it's really here.

    This issue was very, very solid. Heavy on the utility side, but I know that's not for me as a vet, so I took a step back on that end. And that's by design because in Taylor's interview he said that he wrote issue one after he'd already started his run thinking Jon would just take over the normal Superman book (incidentally, it's really nice to know that DC just flat out decided to put the weight of a #1 behind this after just continuing on was on the table).

    I liked how Taylor casually seeds in what Jon can do in terms of powers, his social life (or lack there of), and where he's at mentally and emotionally. This issue functions as a thesis to the Jon Kent Superman, and it ends with a clear mission statement and the seeds to realize it. I realized it was actually a lot like the first issue of Superman back in the 30s in this way.

    There's one choice in the book that could've come off as the weakest part of the whole thing if left out of context: Diana's musings about what Jon can be. For one, had that come from ANY other character it wouldn't have worked, but Diana's way of speaking and how she'd be right at home speaking in such dramatic metaphor makes it. But even that wouldn't be enough on its own. It's really the fact that Taylor is writing this book for today's culture. And in doing that, *just* upping the scale of "able to change the course of mighty rivers" to something bigger wouldn't cut it. Today's readership appreciate and look for a something more on the spectrum of emotional metaphor when looking for a character to get behind. They look for an unquantifiable symbol that's there for you (see the popularity of All-Might), so making the choice to lay that as the bedrock of the issue and Jon's Superman makes sense as an update to the past.

    And Jon Kent himself was near perfect. I won't lie to you, I was scared of Taylor taking over because when he did write older Jon before out of continuity it was largely unimpressive outside of some moments. But he's clearly found a real voice for him here. There's a casualness and earnestness to him that lays over a real nervousness. He knows what feels right, but he also knows what's expected of him as Superman, and the duality clear as day in this issue.

    But Taylor takes the cake with how Jon handles the metahuman situation. It's all one simple but strong metaphor that gets let open like a Russian matryoshka doll. Jon sees a forest fire, and he could *just* battle the symptoms of it, but he knows there's an underlying spark. Jon sees a fire metahuman, and he could put the metahuman out-- battling the symptoms--but he knows there's more to the situation. In the end he sees the root of this problem as something more complex than something he can punch (in this case it's a country and its mistreatment of a person with an illness).

    This simple yet effective metaphorical hat trick was the star of the show, and instead of it being about a really compelling villain, world, or status quo...it was about our hero-- our main character. I'm so glad that's the foot new readers/new-to-Superman readers are going to start of with. This is an inwardly focused book about the choices this young man makes that shapes the future of his world, and I'm here for it.

    Not end-all-be-all of comics, but what it sets out to do, it does very proficiently-- if not exceptionally in some case.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-27-2021 at 02:09 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  15. #960
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Wow, it's really here. I honestly still can't believe it's really here.

    This issue was very, very solid. Heavy on the utility side, but I know that's not for me as a vet, so I took a step back on that end. And that's by design because in Taylor's interview he said that he wrote issue one after he'd already started his run thinking Jon would just take over the normal Superman book (incidentally, it's really nice to know that DC just flat out decided to put the weight of a #1 behind this after just continuing on was on the table).

    I liked how Taylor casually seeds in what Jon can do in terms of powers, his social life (or lack there of), and where he's at mentally and emotionally. This issue functions as a thesis to the Jon Kent Superman, and it ends with a clear mission statement and the seeds to realize it. I realized it was actually a lot like the first issue of Superman back in the 30s in this way.

    There's one choice in the book that could've come off as the weakest part of the while thing if left out of context: Diana's musings about what Jon can be. For one, had that come from ANY other character it wouldn't have worked, but Diana's way of speaking and how she'd be right at home speaking in such dramatic metaphor makes it. But even that wouldn't be enough on its own. It's really the fact that Taylor is writing this book for today's culture. And in doing that, *just* upping the scale of "able to change the course of mighty rivers" to something bigger wouldn't cut it. Today's readership appreciate and look for a something more on the spectrum of emotional metaphor when looking for a character to get behind. They look for an unquantifiable symbol that's there for you (see the popularity of All-Might), so making the choice to lay that as the bedrock of the issue and Jon's Superman makes sense as an update to the past.

    And Jon Kent himself was near perfect. I won't lie to you, I was scared of Taylor taking over because when he did write older Jon before out of continuity it was largely unimpressive outside of some moments. But he's clearly found a real voice for him here. There's a casualness and earnestness to him that lays over a real nervousness. He knows what feels right, but he also knows what's expected of him as Superman, and the duality clear as day in this issue.

    But Taylor takes the cake with how Jon handles the metahuman situation. It's all one simple but strong metaphor that gets let open like a Russian matryoshka doll. Jon sees a forest fire, and he could *just* battle the symptoms of it, but he knows there's an underlying spark. Jon sees a fire metahuman, and he could put the metahuman out-- battling the symptoms--but he knows there's more to the situation. In the end he sees the root of this problem as something more complex than something he can punch (in this case it's a country and its mistreatment of a person with an illness).

    This simple yet effective metaphorical hat trick was the star of the show, and instead of it being about a really compelling villain, world, or status quo...it was about our hero-- our main character. I'm so glad that's the foot new readers/new-to-Superman readers are going to start of with. This is an inwardly focused book about the choices this young man makes that shapes the future of his world, and I'm here for it.

    Not end-all-be-all of comics, but what it sets out to do, it does very proficiently-- if not exceptionally in some case.
    I just gotta say the way you're able to turn everything you're given into something overly positive is something I strive to do & it's hard even with my weed you the blueprint my guy.

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