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  1. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Hah! Timms seems to be going for a Bruce Timm-esque style, but yeah the “blockiness” can be off putting. He draws great action sequences though and I thought his Future State work was fantastic. The monthly grind just kind of wears on artists.
    Agree it's just the faces too HARD!

  2. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    All things considered, he actually wasn't a terrible Spider-man. But uh...yeah...he wasn't Peter.
    The fact I probably won't even be able to Appreciate my man Ock in theater in 3 months now....

  3. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    DC printing 54k issues and selling 55k (or any number above 54k) and thus necessitating a second printing is not necessarily good news. The first issues of Superman Rebirth and Bendis' Superman sold more than 100k, but they didn't get second printings. Tomasi and Gleason and Bendis both sold more than Taylor. I think DC expected SSoK would not sell as well as that, so they lowered their expectations and printed a smaller amount of issues, and SSoK only exceeded that lowered expectation.



    Tim Drake was supposed to straight when he was introduced. He was supposed to be your everyday, relatable, white teen. Characters can grow past their initial creation. I grew up in the rural Midwest and my dad was a farmer. That didn't stop me from being gay and growing up into something not as a farmer. Kathy was the girl next door. She could've been the first person he told that he liked boys.



    Bobby Drake was forcibly outed as a time-displaced teenager, and yet his older adult self is the one that is gay. Rebirth as a status quo was just as the name implied, a rebirth. If Rebirth was allowed to come to a natural conclusion, that would've allowed for other writers to carry forward the new ideas put out by Rebirth, such as Jon. PKJ would've been a great follow up in contrast to the more Earth-centric Superman Rebirth and I think Taylor would've been a great choice to succeed Tomasi on Super Sons.
    Jon Kent is popular and this book will do well enough to assure that he won’t disappear


    I guarantee it
    Last edited by Vathlonian; 08-25-2021 at 10:53 AM.

  4. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It sold out and went to second printing so I expect they’re happy. We’ll see how issue 2 does.

    I… I don’t really know how to put this. You get that Jon as he was when you liked him was straight, was never going to be anything but straight right? He was a chip off the old block, he had his childhood sweetheart in Kathy with Tomasi teasing that Kathy might be Jon’s endgame relationship in his glimpses of the future. He was going to take up his dad’s mantle and do things the same way his dad did. It was a nice, neat, “normal” idyllic 50’s Americana family.

    Jon being anything but straight completely changes all that.

    The type of people who would play the Rebirth status quo straight (no pun intended), aren’t the type of people who want a queer Jon or who have any interest in writing him. And the type of people who would want to write a queer Jon in that setting are going to deconstruct the everloving **** out of it, because that kind of setting isn’t very kind to real life queer people. What they’re doing with Jon is essentially making him a totally different character from Tomasi’s Jon, and I really don’t see how you can possible go back to the way things were. Maybe if they make him bi, and like Constantine’s bisexuality it’s ignored 99% of the time, but otherwise? There’s no going back.

    Love, Simon is basically Jon Kent’s coming out story if it was written by Tomasi


    Change my mind


    But realistically you can’t

    Love, Simon is exactly the the kind of tone that tomasi would go for
    Last edited by Vathlonian; 08-25-2021 at 10:54 AM.

  5. #1535
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    The future of Jon as a character depends on whatever they are planning to do with the DCU after Infinite Frontier.
    I am not following the titles that much, but as far as I have seen, the current situation sounds and looks as a temporary one, with several missing major players (including Hal Jordan - yes, I know that they are doing their best to push John Stewart, but I don't think that they have been particularly successful so far) and some fan-pandering but disastrous sales-wise titles (Wally West as the Flash). It's basically a Frankenstein status, a mix of a light version of Didio's 5G plan, some recycled plots/miniseries (Leviathan now counts even less than it did before) and something else which is quite hard to figure out (and I strongly suspect they haven't figured it out themselves). I have no idea of the reason why they are pushing Jon so much if - as BC has said - the Superman copyright is not the real issue here. However, whatever the situation is (and provided post-IF DC resembles DC as we know it, which I wouldn't take for granted), they could definitely replace main Superman with Jon Kent, or put Jon Kent on some variation of Earth-154 definitely separating him from Superman, or make Jon Kent evil or something else. I guess that much depends on how stable the sales are, too, and so far they seem relatively good (if you think that the first issue didn't sell well enough, it sold way better than Action Comics).

    One thing though... If you are waiting for DC to resume kid Jon, don't hold your breath. The best you can hope for - MAYBE - is some limited/secondary Super-Sons mini-series. But if that version of the character had been successful enough to justify that status, they wouldn't have made him grow up in the first place.
    Besides that, teen Jon has existed so far longer than kid Jon (or that will be the situation very soon) and - if they are really developing some romantic relationship for him, kid Jon is RIP (IMHO it was already over when he kissed Saturn Girl or whatever happened in the Legion title). In addition, I'd say that if they are following media synergy (Superman and Lois) they have one more reason for older Jon to be around.
    By the way... As far as I remember (I may be wrong of course) there is no precedent for characters de-aged from late teen years to a remarkably younger age. The only one I can think of is Bart Allen, but he became adult in a very short Flash series no one remembers or cared about; also, since he came back he has never been as relevant as in the Waid years. And even then his deaging sounded incredibly weird.
    I'd say that for Jon the deaging would make even less sense, because since his inception this character was basically engineered as a heir to Superman. Most of his interactions with SuperDad were about him learning to be a superhero - a specific superhero, that is Superman. That is/was his hero's journey. And it is quite a different situation, for example, from Damian Wayne - who has alway been his own thing and not necessarily Batman's heir (except for Batman 666's alternate future, in which he is a very specific type of caped crusader).
    So... What would the point in deaging Jon be if he has ALREADY completed his journey? He is Superman now. He has been in the Legion. It may have been an unsatisfying journey for some readers, but he completed it. Why should they go back to tell the same story all over again?
    I mean... I really can't see them going back to kid Jon looking with puppy eyes at his SuperDad and thinking whether he will ever be as good as Superman as him. That story has already been told. Of course, they could find some superconvoluted way to bring him back, maybe pretending that current SuperJon is not the real Jon, and kid Jon is lost somewhere, but again - I really can't see them doing it and, even if they did it, after so much time many readers would feel cheated anyway.
    In short: anything's possible... But the specific status they used to introduce Jon - the Rockwellian landscape, kid Jon etc., IMHO is definitely a thing of the past.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  6. #1536
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    See I don't really mind if he has to start his journey all over again because he didn't get the chance to have much of a journey to begin with. As soon as it felt like it was just getting started, they rushed him to damn near the end. There was so much more he could have done before reaching this point. So many stories he could have gone through as we watched him grow up. So many ways those stories could have changed him in so that in the end we aren't just left with a Gen Z version of Clark, claiming to be something different.

    I'm not asking for a permanent return to the nuclear family simple farm life that he had at the start of Tomasi's run. I'm asking for this character to have another chance at being able to grow in a way that doesn't reek of executive obsession with a character's destination over the journey they take to get there. Because there are plenty of ways they can start from scratch and wing up with an end result that's different from what we have now (and man, do I hope that would be the case. Because even if Jon had grown up into this guy naturally, it'd still be dull and disappointing).

    Of course I'm well aware that it's probably not happening and that the Jon that I loved is dead. But this could have been fixed. And that's probably what's the most disappointing about all of this. It might have been convoluted. It might have felt like a backtrack for a little bit. But it could have been fixed and made into something truly special. Something that could have been a coming of age story, the likes of which we really haven't seen in DC since Dick and his generation. Instead we just gotta make due with another dime a dozen YA hero angsting over his place in the world and whether or not he can fill daddy's shoes. He's even more diet Clark now than he's ever been. Right down to his appearance. All they're missing now is having him become some sort of Journalism or Media Studies major at his new college. It was cute as a kid when he just wanted to emulate his dad and you knew he'd start growing out of it when he got older (especially since he already had a bit of a rebellious streak and definitely showed signs of also being Lois' kid). But he's older now and well...he still hasn't really grown past that. And we're well past the point where it's still cute. Now it's just annoying.
    Last edited by Blue22; 08-25-2021 at 11:16 AM.

  7. #1537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Of course I'm well aware that it's probably not happening and that the Jon that I loved is dead. But this could have been fixed. And that's probably what's the most disappointing about all of this. It might have been convoluted. It might have felt like a backtrack for a little bit. But it could have been fixed and made into something truly special. Something that could have been a coming of age story, the likes of which we really haven't seen in DC since Dick and his generation. Instead we just gotta make due with another dime a dozen YA hero angsting over his place in the world and whether or not he can fill daddy's shoes. He's even more diet Clark now than he's ever been. Right down to his appearance. All they're missing now is having him become some sort of Journalism or Media Studies major at his new college. It was cute as a kid when he just wanted to emulate his dad and you knew he'd start growing out of it when he got older (especially since he already had a bit of a rebellious streak and definitely showed signs of also being Lois' kid). But he's older now and well...he still hasn't really grown past that. And we're well past the point where it's still cute. Now it's just annoying.
    Look... I am probably beating a dead horse at this point, but the way things evolved since 2015 (Jesus, it has already been 6 years since Lois and Clark?) was more or less predictable.
    The problem with Jon has always been a structural one. Back in the days, editors and writers were VERY careful at introducing hero's descendants because of a series of reasons (they are not easy to deal with in terms of narration, they make the main heroes look older, they detract attention from the other characters, etc.) which the latest years have proven to be 100% right.

    It's not that it is impossible to give a hero a son/daughter. But the point is - you must be extremely attentive and careful when you are going to change the status quo in such a radical way. Basically, you need a very good plan. For reasons Last Son of Krypton has explained here https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5694686 the pitch when they introduced Jon into "real" continuity was a flawed one.
    If I had to take a guess, I'd say that Jon and SuperDad replacing Superbro was more or less a contingency plan after the DCYou fiasco, but when it became THE status quo things hadn't been planned well enough to overcome all the difficulties it presented. The version of the Superfamily some readers have come to love works only in a very separate and specific corner of the DCU - the Rockwellian country, the Twilight Zone atmosphere, Superman as a farmer rather than a metropolitan journalist, Jonathan and Martha dead, etc. Basically, when it is an alternate take on Superman. This alternate take was the status quo in a very specific moment of the DCU, but - at least, to me - it was rather clear that it couldn't have been the status quo forever. I'd say that what happened later was the more or less unavoidable consequence of a return to a more familiar status quo mixed with DC pushing for a new Superman for reasons I am not 100% sure about; this, and the fact that Jon couldn't have ever been anything different from Superman's heir (differently from Damian).

    IMHO the only way for things to get back to a status which many readers would be really happy about (including Jon's detractors, and yes I'm one of them, because I think that the character created more problems than anything else since its introduction) would be by splitting Superman into two different versions, a Jon-less one with a status similar to the pre-New52 one and a Lois and Clark version with kid Jon in Smallville or wherever they want - basically to the separate "corner" where the character made sense. But I really can't see them doing it anytime soon, and - as I said - the kid Jon ship has definitely sailed.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  8. #1538
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    No worries. As the main one here's been complaining about Jon for years, I know all about beating a dead horse lol

    Like I said, I'm well aware that this....thing is just what Jon's gonna be now. But I'm a stubborn bastard who will always see this as one of the biggest disservices done to a character since Bart's age up, the New 52 Teen Titans, or...whatever the **** has been going with She-Hulk since Civil War II. So I'm more than willing to hope and wait for as long as it takes. Even if it just straight up never happens.

    I'm not in denial about the odds of it happening. I know it's so slim that it might as well be zero. But as long as it's not absolute zero (which...almost nothing in this industry ever is), I'mma still fight for it.
    Last edited by Blue22; 08-25-2021 at 12:25 PM.

  9. #1539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Look... I am probably beating a dead horse at this point, but the way things evolved since 2015 (Jesus, it has already been 6 years since Lois and Clark?) was more or less predictable.
    The problem with Jon has always been a structural one. Back in the days, editors and writers were VERY careful at introducing hero's descendants because of a series of reasons (they are not easy to deal with in terms of narration, they make the main heroes look older, they detract attention from the other characters, etc.) which the latest years have proven to be 100% right.

    It's not that it is impossible to give a hero a son/daughter. But the point is - you must be extremely attentive and careful when you are going to change the status quo in such a radical way. Basically, you need a very good plan. For reasons Last Son of Krypton has explained here https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5694686 the pitch when they introduced Jon into "real" continuity was a flawed one.
    If I had to take a guess, I'd say that Jon and SuperDad replacing Superbro was more or less a contingency plan after the DCYou fiasco, but when it became THE status quo things hadn't been planned well enough to overcome all the difficulties it presented. The version of the Superfamily some readers have come to love works only in a very separate and specific corner of the DCU - the Rockwellian country, the Twilight Zone atmosphere, Superman as a farmer rather than a metropolitan journalist, Jonathan and Martha dead, etc. Basically, when it is an alternate take on Superman. This alternate take was the status quo in a very specific moment of the DCU, but - at least, to me - it was rather clear that it couldn't have been the status quo forever. I'd say that what happened later was the more or less unavoidable consequence of a return to a more familiar status quo mixed with DC pushing for a new Superman for reasons I am not 100% sure about; this, and the fact that Jon couldn't have ever been anything different from Superman's heir (differently from Damian).

    IMHO the only way for things to get back to a status which many readers would be really happy about (including Jon's detractors, and yes I'm one of them, because I think that the character created more problems than anything else since its introduction) would be by splitting Superman into two different versions, a Jon-less one with a status similar to the pre-New52 one and a Lois and Clark version with kid Jon in Smallville or wherever they want - basically to the separate "corner" where the character made sense. But I really can't see them doing it anytime soon, and - as I said - the kid Jon ship has definitely sailed.
    Splitting marriage Superman and bachelor Superman is simply never going to happen

    The whole reason they did it the first time was to erase bachelor Superman


    Bachelor Superman hasn’t been popular within comics in decades…new 52 fell flat on its face harder than even the Bendis era sales wise


    Doing your suggestion would literally sink the entire Superman line


    Might as well cancel action comics at that point
    Last edited by Vathlonian; 08-25-2021 at 12:30 PM.

  10. #1540
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    The future of Jon as a character depends on whatever they are planning to do with the DCU after Infinite Frontier.
    I am not following the titles that much, but as far as I have seen, the current situation sounds and looks as a temporary one, with several missing major players (including Hal Jordan - yes, I know that they are doing their best to push John Stewart, but I don't think that they have been particularly successful so far) and some fan-pandering but disastrous sales-wise titles (Wally West as the Flash). It's basically a Frankenstein status, a mix of a light version of Didio's 5G plan, some recycled plots/miniseries (Leviathan now counts even less than it did before) and something else which is quite hard to figure out (and I strongly suspect they haven't figured it out themselves). I have no idea of the reason why they are pushing Jon so much if - as BC has said - the Superman copyright is not the real issue here. However, whatever the situation is (and provided post-IF DC resembles DC as we know it, which I wouldn't take for granted), they could definitely replace main Superman with Jon Kent, or put Jon Kent on some variation of Earth-154 definitely separating him from Superman, or make Jon Kent evil or something else. I guess that much depends on how stable the sales are, too, and so far they seem relatively good (if you think that the first issue didn't sell well enough, it sold way better than Action Comics).

    One thing though... If you are waiting for DC to resume kid Jon, don't hold your breath. The best you can hope for - MAYBE - is some limited/secondary Super-Sons mini-series. But if that version of the character had been successful enough to justify that status, they wouldn't have made him grow up in the first place.
    Besides that, teen Jon has existed so far longer than kid Jon (or that will be the situation very soon) and - if they are really developing some romantic relationship for him, kid Jon is RIP (IMHO it was already over when he kissed Saturn Girl or whatever happened in the Legion title). In addition, I'd say that if they are following media synergy (Superman and Lois) they have one more reason for older Jon to be around.
    By the way... As far as I remember (I may be wrong of course) there is no precedent for characters de-aged from late teen years to a remarkably younger age. The only one I can think of is Bart Allen, but he became adult in a very short Flash series no one remembers or cared about; also, since he came back he has never been as relevant as in the Waid years. And even then his deaging sounded incredibly weird.
    I'd say that for Jon the deaging would make even less sense, because since his inception this character was basically engineered as a heir to Superman. Most of his interactions with SuperDad were about him learning to be a superhero - a specific superhero, that is Superman. That is/was his hero's journey. And it is quite a different situation, for example, from Damian Wayne - who has alway been his own thing and not necessarily Batman's heir (except for Batman 666's alternate future, in which he is a very specific type of caped crusader).
    So... What would the point in deaging Jon be if he has ALREADY completed his journey? He is Superman now. He has been in the Legion. It may have been an unsatisfying journey for some readers, but he completed it. Why should they go back to tell the same story all over again?
    I mean... I really can't see them going back to kid Jon looking with puppy eyes at his SuperDad and thinking whether he will ever be as good as Superman as him. That story has already been told. Of course, they could find some superconvoluted way to bring him back, maybe pretending that current SuperJon is not the real Jon, and kid Jon is lost somewhere, but again - I really can't see them doing it and, even if they did it, after so much time many readers would feel cheated anyway.
    In short: anything's possible... But the specific status they used to introduce Jon - the Rockwellian landscape, kid Jon etc., IMHO is definitely a thing of the past.
    A kid character has been aged up and de-aged. Franklin Richards was stolen by his grandfather and raised in the future and he came back in the same issue as an adult. Within the year through some timey-wimey trick they turned him back into a kid again because fans hated him being aged up.
    There's also the convoluted de-aging and re-aging of Cable in the X-Men.

  11. #1541
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    DC printing 54k issues and selling 55k (or any number above 54k) and thus necessitating a second printing is not necessarily good news. The first issues of Superman Rebirth and Bendis' Superman sold more than 100k, but they didn't get second printings. Tomasi and Gleason and Bendis both sold more than Taylor. I think DC expected SSoK would not sell as well as that, so they lowered their expectations and printed a smaller amount of issues, and SSoK only exceeded that lowered expectation.
    Which… is still good? Like I’m not sure how you can spin that as a negative lol. They set low expectations and Taylor exceeded them, that’s a success however you look at it.
    Tim Drake was supposed to straight when he was introduced. He was supposed to be your everyday, relatable, white teen. Characters can grow past their initial creation. I grew up in the rural Midwest and my dad was a farmer. That didn't stop me from being gay and growing up into something not as a farmer. Kathy was the girl next door. She could've been the first person he told that he liked boys.
    Sure they could have but that never going to happen, nor was it ever a consideration. Kathy was Jon’s Lana, his first crush, Jon never had any romantic interest in boys, nor were Tomasi and Jurgens ever going to portray him otherwise. The intent with Rebirth was to play all the cliches straight and sincerely.

    If Tomasi and Jurgens hadn’t been kicked off, you were never getting a queer Jon. Not happening no matter how much fanfic people wrote. Tomasi and Jurgens clearly saw and wrote Jon as straight, zero indication he was anything but.
    Bobby Drake was forcibly outed as a time-displaced teenager, and yet his older adult self is the one that is gay. Rebirth as a status quo was just as the name implied, a rebirth. If Rebirth was allowed to come to a natural conclusion, that would've allowed for other writers to carry forward the new ideas put out by Rebirth, such as Jon. PKJ would've been a great follow up in contrast to the more Earth-centric Superman Rebirth and I think Taylor would've been a great choice to succeed Tomasi on Super Sons.
    If Rebirth had been allowed to come to a “natural conclusion” (not really sure what you mean), Jon would’ve grown up, dated women and became Superman alongside Damian as Batman. Look to be blunt, I believe that your fellow fans of Rebirth are not likely to be fans of a queer Jon. They would despise that as “wokeness” and even if he was deaged they would still stay away, same reason a lot of Kaldur’s fans left when they made him gay. So making Jon queer would still have sent the sales numbers into freefall because queer kids don’t fit in to the nice nuclear family living in the wholesome country with Lois baking pies and Clark working on the farm that Rebirth sold. We clearly disagree and that’s fine, it’s all a moot point now I suppose.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  12. #1542
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    The future of Jon as a character depends on whatever they are planning to do with the DCU after Infinite Frontier.
    I am not following the titles that much, but as far as I have seen, the current situation sounds and looks as a temporary one, with several missing major players (including Hal Jordan - yes, I know that they are doing their best to push John Stewart, but I don't think that they have been particularly successful so far) and some fan-pandering but disastrous sales-wise titles (Wally West as the Flash). It's basically a Frankenstein status, a mix of a light version of Didio's 5G plan, some recycled plots/miniseries (Leviathan now counts even less than it did before) and something else which is quite hard to figure out (and I strongly suspect they haven't figured it out themselves). I have no idea of the reason why they are pushing Jon so much if - as BC has said - the Superman copyright is not the real issue here. However, whatever the situation is (and provided post-IF DC resembles DC as we know it, which I wouldn't take for granted), they could definitely replace main Superman with Jon Kent, or put Jon Kent on some variation of Earth-154 definitely separating him from Superman, or make Jon Kent evil or something else. I guess that much depends on how stable the sales are, too, and so far they seem relatively good (if you think that the first issue didn't sell well enough, it sold way better than Action Comics).
    .
    I thought maybe they were doing that. But if they’re actually making Jon queer (assuming it isn’t all bull crap or he won’t be bi and still date women 99% of the time)? Then there’s zero chance he replaces Clark in a long term role. I frankly don’t see the sales being there for him, being queer makes him harder to adapt because there’s vast swaths of the global market that will outright ban media he’s in, and all the other media is featuring Clark as Superman with the CW Jon being straight and powerless. Kinda curious as a Jon detractor, what do you think will happen if he flops? Because I can’t see them making a big deal of Jon as Superman and then deaging him (totally agree that Rebirth is the past) or even killing him off.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  13. #1543
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Is...is it safe to come out and finally have fun talking about this book and character, or is that just not happening today?
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #1544
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Is...is it safe to come out and finally have fun talking about this book and character, or is that just not happening today?
    Oh by all means go ahead. Don't let the side convos distract you

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    If Rebirth had been allowed to come to a “natural conclusion” (not really sure what you mean), Jon would’ve grown up, dated women and became Superman alongside Damian as Batman. Look to be blunt, I believe that your fellow fans of Rebirth are not likely to be fans of a queer Jon. They would despise that as “wokeness” and even if he was deaged they would still stay away
    That's an odd conclusion to jump to given the large amount of fans who'd been shipping Jon with Damian since 2016, just as hard as folks have shipped Tim with Conner.

    Me personally, I hate the DamiJon ship, but I have no issue with either or both of them being queer. Regardless of what age they are. Make Jon queer. Don't make him queer. I don't really care. I just want him to get a do-over. One that he very likely won't be getting but damn if I don't still want it cuz this right here...what they got going on now. This ain't it, chief.
    Last edited by Blue22; 08-25-2021 at 01:26 PM.

  15. #1545
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    The future of Jon as a character depends on whatever they are planning to do with the DCU after Infinite Frontier.
    I am not following the titles that much, but as far as I have seen, the current situation sounds and looks as a temporary one, with several missing major players (including Hal Jordan - yes, I know that they are doing their best to push John Stewart, but I don't think that they have been particularly successful so far) and some fan-pandering but disastrous sales-wise titles (Wally West as the Flash). It's basically a Frankenstein status, a mix of a light version of Didio's 5G plan, some recycled plots/miniseries (Leviathan now counts even less than it did before) and something else which is quite hard to figure out (and I strongly suspect they haven't figured it out themselves). I have no idea of the reason why they are pushing Jon so much if - as BC has said - the Superman copyright is not the real issue here. However, whatever the situation is (and provided post-IF DC resembles DC as we know it, which I wouldn't take for granted), they could definitely replace main Superman with Jon Kent, or put Jon Kent on some variation of Earth-154 definitely separating him from Superman, or make Jon Kent evil or something else. I guess that much depends on how stable the sales are, too, and so far they seem relatively good (if you think that the first issue didn't sell well enough, it sold way better than Action Comics).
    First issues are statistical outliers and should never be counted when determining a general trend. Rebirth and Bendis both started at 100k, but the actual average sale for each run was around 30-40k and 30k respectively. Rebirth had a much more gradual decline while Bendis had a much sharper decline. SSoK did not have a strong start and as evident but its predecessors, it's all downhill from here.

    I just check Comixology's top ten and SSoK is at number 7 and right below it Robin at number 8. That's a decrease from number 3 where it was last month whereas Robin is at the same spot it was last month. Over the course of 5 issues, Robin has been consistent, but SSoK has already seen a drop, but it's a drop that I've been saying will happen from before the first issue even released. Now we have to wait and see each month if it maintains its place in the bottom half of Comixology's top ten.

    One thing though... If you are waiting for DC to resume kid Jon, don't hold your breath. The best you can hope for - MAYBE - is some limited/secondary Super-Sons mini-series. But if that version of the character had been successful enough to justify that status, they wouldn't have made him grow up in the first place.
    It's common knowledge that the reason Super Sons was cancelled was so it could make way for Bendis' flipping of the status quo. It was never cancelled because of sales. Its trades sales were very strong while its single issues weren't the best, which is to be expected because it was a new book with a new name. Not all books can sell like Batman.

    Besides that, teen Jon has existed so far longer than kid Jon (or that will be the situation very soon)
    Hal Jordan was Parallax for quite a while. Didn't stop DC from turning back that clock. Please don't fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy. Anything can be undone.

    and - if they are really developing some romantic relationship for him, kid Jon is RIP (IMHO it was already over when he kissed Saturn Girl or whatever happened in the Legion title). In addition, I'd say that if they are following media synergy (Superman and Lois) they have one more reason for older Jon to be around.
    By the way... As far as I remember (I may be wrong of course) there is no precedent for characters de-aged from late teen years to a remarkably younger age.
    I literally referenced Franklin Richards a few pages back. In the grand scheme of Franklin's history, that was only a flash in the pan, but at the time I'm sure the adult Franklin stuck around longer than baby Franklin until it was undone.

    The only one I can think of is Bart Allen, but he became adult in a very short Flash series no one remembers or cared about; also, since he came back he has never been as relevant as in the Waid years. And even then his deaging sounded incredibly weird.
    Bart is the other example of a successful de-aging, but I can't speak to anything relating to the Flash, but I do know that aging up Bart was a purely editorial thing.

    I'd say that for Jon the deaging would make even less sense, because since his inception this character was basically engineered as a heir to Superman. Most of his interactions with SuperDad were about him learning to be a superhero - a specific superhero, that is Superman. That is/was his hero's journey.
    That's the thing, he didn't have to be. And that's what we were deprived of when he was aged up, the stories of him growing up. I swear I've typed "Character can grow past their initial introduction" a dozen times by now, but it bears repeating. Of course his logical conclusion was to become Superman, that's all that was ever written about him! Once Tomasi and Gleason were done with him, Jon would've been handed off to the next writer who would've written the next set of Jon stories, using Tomasi and Gleason's work as basis for theirs.

    Instead, Jon was ripped from their hands and placed in Bendis' who preceded to break his new toy because he didn't want to play with him and then we have Bendis' successors siding with Bendis over Tomasi and Gleason.

    And it is quite a different situation, for example, from Damian Wayne - who has alway been his own thing and not necessarily Batman's heir (except for Batman 666's alternate future, in which he is a very specific type of caped crusader).
    A lot of work went into making Damian into his own thing. Morrison planted a seed they never planned to reap benefit from. Instead, Tomasi and Gleason grew that seed into a strong character but that would have never happened if they didn't have the time to write and draw over 50 issues across several different titles.

    So... What would the point in deaging Jon be if he has ALREADY completed his journey?
    What was the point of undoing Hal as Parallax or Bart as the Flash? They completed their journeys, so why go back? Because those were shitty directions that no one liked (that's a misnomer because there's always going to be fans of unpopular thing, just looked at aged up Jon).

    He is Superman now. He has been in the Legion. It may have been an unsatisfying journey for some readers, but he completed it. Why should they go back to tell the same story all over again?
    Because we wouldn't be going back to tell the same story again. We'd be going back to where we left off, with Jon and Damian going to school together. Aged up Jon could be revealed to be an Earth-3 version or a clone or a time displaced Jon. There are a myriad of solutions at DC's disposal. Just pick one. The distinction between the real Jon and the aged up one is so clear cut, it's amazing how easy it would be to delineated one from the one.

    I mean... I really can't see them going back to kid Jon looking with puppy eyes at his SuperDad and thinking whether he will ever be as good as Superman as him. That story has already been told. Of course, they could find some superconvoluted way to bring him back, maybe pretending that current SuperJon is not the real Jon, and kid Jon is lost somewhere, but again - I really can't see them doing it and, even if they did it, after so much time many readers would feel cheated anyway.
    In short: anything's possible... But the specific status they used to introduce Jon - the Rockwellian landscape, kid Jon etc., IMHO is definitely a thing of the past.
    Not if you let it be. Much like how Damian grew past his characterization in Morrison's Batman and Son, Jon was poised for charting new territory at the end of Super Sons of Tomorrow and I don't mean going to space with Jor-El. If Bendis never left Marvel, we would not be in this situation. In some people's eyes, Jon was treading water, but in my eyes, he was swimming a marathon that would've taken decades to complete, which is why I and some many others feel in love with him. It's not too late and it never will be.

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