Superman: son of Kal-El

[Vordan]

I really think this book should've had a more "grounded" art style to really make it feel tangible. It just really under cuts the gravity of what Taylor's writing is even trying to deal with. I mean, we're talking about literal asylum seekers, protest, police brutality, Superman going to jail in solidarity of a movement, Superman protesting with a real life movement, addressing the climate crisis, a school shooting, military brutality, human trafficking, and battling the leader of a nation.

Tackling those issues visually with Timms' more flat and low detail traditionally cartoony style really sucks out all of the air from it. It's almost like making light of the issues with the more light and breezy tone Timms brings. You wouldn't get horror artist to do a Daffy Duck comic that's just a normal Daffy Duck comic.

It would likely be too much to hope for, but Mikel Janin, Olivier Coipel, or Daniel Sempere would all be better fits. I'd also go for David Marquez if you're looking for something both grounded yet fun and sexy. But Timms style just isn't it.

This book is high profile as hell right now, but-- and with all due respect to Timms-- you wouldn't really know it.

I can kind of understand where you’re coming from, but given the way Taylor just breezes through all of those topics I’m not sure Timms is actually all that bad a fit. Imagine something like Taylor’s “hopes and prayers” school shooter scene in a more serious art style, I think the backlash would’ve been much, much stronger. Taylor simply isn’t a strong enough writer to grapple with serious nuanced interrogations of real world issues, he’s too simplistic a writer. There are the bad evil people and the good heroes who beat them up or rally the world against them with an inspiring speech (see: X-Men Red), and Timms more cartoonish style fits better with that kind of writing.

Also Capeless Jon remains superior it sets him apart from the rest of the family.

Agreed I was happy he left the cape with Jay (guess they’ve already graduated to Jay wearing Jon’s clothing least it was his sweatshirt).

[Superlad93]

I can kind of understand where you’re coming from, but given the way Taylor just breezes through all of those topics I’m not sure Timms is actually all that bad a fit. Imagine something like Taylor’s “hopes and prayers” school shooter scene in a more serious art style, I think the backlash would’ve been much, much stronger.

I think it would've actually made up for the speed that Taylor moves at. The art would've been able to do a lot more of the "heavy lifting" that Taylor isn't interested in. With Timms style I feel like there's less to stop and take in, zoom in, and really look over. That makes the comic feel shorter than it actually is. You turn the page basically once you're done reading.

Seriously let MORE stuff in this comic be get good or bad buzz. Superman GOING TO JAIL-- even for a page or two-- should've been a far more striking image. Superman stopping a cop from beating on a protester should've been talked about more and been far more of a striking image no matter how short it was, and I think the blame is in the art's breezy nature even before Taylor's.

Taylor simply isn’t a strong enough writer to grapple with serious nuanced interrogations of real world issues, he’s too simplistic a writer. There are the bad evil people and the good heroes who beat them up or rally the world against them with an inspiring speech (see: X-Men Red), and Timms more cartoonish style fits better with that kind of writing.

The thing is, you don't need him to be all that complex or deep to really hit this issues hard. You don't even need him to move beyond his style of writing. You just need him to direct the image, and then the imaginations and buzz of the internet will do the rest. But for that to work as often as it should with a comic touching on stuff like this, you need to get an artist with a more grounded style that evokes the real world where these issues come from.

Taylor's collaborator on Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, Juann Cabal, would've been perfect for this. His stuff feel really tangible and grounded where each single rescue is exciting to see no matter how small, but it's also bright and smooth enough to allow for cute moments.

[Vordan]

Janin could probably do something similar, perhaps your hunch that they’re putting him on SSOKE will prove true and he’ll be more to everyone’s taste. Taylor seems to prefer these more cartoony artists however given both Timms and DiNicuolo are who he’s chosen to work with.

[OopsIdiditagain]

I guess I'm the only one here who wouldn't have preferred more "realistic" looking art. I think cartoony-looking art like Timm's or the one in the last issue helps make the book feel more youthful.

I could suggest an alternative artist to Timm it would be Chris Wildgoose. He worked on Batgirl Rebirth and a Batman YA but I know his art from Alienated.

[Superlad93]

Janin could probably do something similar, perhaps your hunch that they’re putting him on SSOKE will prove true and he’ll be more to everyone’s taste. Taylor seems to prefer these more cartoony artists however given both Timms and DiNicuolo are who he’s chosen to work with.

I hope it's either Sempere or Janin, and that's why they were moved off Action.

And I'd actually argue that Taylor is more at home with someone like Bruno Redondo given the fact that he's Taylor's most frequent collaborator (Injustice, Nightwing, and Suicide Squad). Taylor's even worked with Sempere before on SS, and Sempere and Redondo are pretty good friends. On a whole I'd say he's more the type to go with a relatively realistic style because it also helps for those "gut punch" shock moments he likes so much. Those moments are less, well, shocking when it's a more flat cartoony style.

[Superlad93]

I guess I'm the only one here who wouldn't have preferred more "realistic" looking art. I think cartoony-looking art like Timm's or the one in the last issue helps make the book feel more youthful.

I could suggest an alternative artist to Timm it would be Chris Wildgoose. He worked on Batgirl Rebirth and a Batman YA but I know his art from Alienated.

But even this is more grounded than Timms style. The anatomy is relatively realistic as opposed to Timms' hyper elongated and angular style.

If Camron Stewart weren't, well, Camron Stewart I think he'd have bridged the gap between cartoony and realistic. See his work on Seven Solders, Batman, and Fight Club 2 and 3.


Chris Burnham would also work.

[Vordan]

I guess I'm the only one here who wouldn't have preferred more "realistic" looking art. I think cartoony-looking art like Timm's or the one in the last issue helps make the book feel more youthful.

I could suggest an alternative artist to Timm it would be Chris Wildgoose. He worked on Batgirl Rebirth and a Batman YA but I know his art from Alienated.

I’m enjoying Timms! New colorist has really helped his work. His action scenes are great, think the turn off for people is he doesn’t draw “sexy” people, and the queer romance between Jon and Jay is a huge part of the appeal for many people.

I hope it's either Sempere or Janin, and that's why they were moved off Action.

And I'd actually argue that Taylor is more at home with someone like Bruno Redondo given the fact that he's Taylor's most frequent collaborator (Injustice, Nightwing, and Suicide Squad). Taylor's even worked with Sempere before on SS, and Sempere and Redondo are pretty good friends. On a whole I'd say he's more the type to go with a relatively realistic style because it also helps for those "gut punch" shock moments he likes so much. Those moments are less, well, shocking when it's a more flat cartoony style.

There’s a chance for Janin but I’d put money down that Sampere has been tapped to do the 2022 event that’s coming up. Would love to have him still in the Superverse.

Chris Burnham would also work.

Long as we are ok with getting three issues a year

[Superlad93]

While I really hope and feel there's a good chance we could get Janin, I do think Chris Wildgoose's art is really, really good stuff-- grounded and tangible yet with this sun kissed day glow quality-- and would work a lot better than what we're getting now.

[Superlad93]

You know what would be kind of neat and potentially interesting? If the guy that got his arm broken by Jon when Jon saved him from getting hit by a car actually sued Jon.

Because, I mean, you can do that with Jon since his identity is known. He has a home address on file and everything. Like, imagine Jon flying around doing his thing, and some dude is faking an emergency. Then when Jon lands it's revealed that Jon's being served court papers, and he's being sued!

You can make a whole 3 to 4 issue arc out of this! Maybe there's a villain or a group that convinced the guy to sue Jon? What's it like leading up to the trial? What's the world's reaction? I'm sure the dude using Superman is getting death threats and protesters outside of his house. Maybe even have some "mob justice" acted upon the dude and Jon has to spend a day saving the dude who's suing him.

But don't stop there because maybe there actually is a case here, right? Jon was flying/operating "under the influence" in this instance. His mind was mind was distracted, and he knew that his powers were influx due to his specific biology. He had several instances where he KNEW for a FACT that he was operating at a level of power that he didn't have full say over.

This could then prompt us to explore how Jon's biology works, and how it's different from Clark's. And you could really bring in social media and the news networks into this. Maybe this starts off with public opinion mostly on Jon's. "You're gonna sue Superman? FORE SAVING YOU?" But then as more information comes out about Jon knowingly acting "under the influence" of extra solar radiation (remember there's literally cell phone recording shown of Jon cracking the ground and telling a doctor "just stay back, please. I don't want to accidentally hurt you), it gets a little harder for some people to defend the new kid. A doctor even offered to look at Jon when he clearly looked bad. Bring that guy in as a witness! So you get some people reacting like "oh he did that? Well, I doubt his father would be so reckless." and "these beings are walking nukes! We can't give them a slap on the wrist when they break us on accident because of their negligence!" But we'd also get people firing back with "he saved the guy's life-- while the guy was texting in the street" or "if you could hear everyone in the world screaming for help, and you had the power to help them wouldn't it be more messed up that you didn't try?"

Place in some gags like Damian going "maybe I'll pay the man a visit and make sure a broken arm is the last thing he'll have to worry about". Have some JL members (Wally) come in as character witnesses. Maybe even a really sweet scene where a whole bunch of tweets, emails, letters, and video essays flood in talking about how much Superman means to them.

There's just so much fun to be had and character insight to be found with such a simple idea as "Superman gets sued". You could even come out of this with a new supporting character in the form of "Superman's Lawyer _______". Make them Jon's "Jimmy Olsen" but they're more like Better Call Saul but for superheroes rather than criminals and drug lords. I mean, this wouldn't be the last time Jon might be dealing with legal gymnastics given the fact that he's a public figure with an open identity, and he's a more proactive Superman. So like whenever someone goes "you legally can't do this, Superman!" Our lawyer person can go "hold it right there! Under (insert legal whatever here) my client is within his full rights to be doing this".


Whoa...didn't realize how much of a tangent I just went off on haha

[Betinayen]

You know what would be kind of neat and potentially interesting? If the guy that got his arm broken by Jon when Jon saved him from getting hit by a car actually sued Jon.

Because, I mean, you can do that with Jon since his identity is known. He has a home address on file and everything. Like, imagine Jon flying around doing his thing, and some dude is faking an emergency. Then when Jon lands it's revealed that Jon's being served court papers, and he's being sued!

You can make a whole 3 to 4 issue arc out of this! Maybe there's a villain or a group that convinced the guy to sue Jon? What's it like leading up to the trial? What's the world's reaction? I'm sure the dude using Superman is getting death threats and protesters outside of his house. Maybe even have some "mob justice" acted upon the dude and Jon has to spend a day saving the dude who's suing him.

But don't stop there because maybe there actually is a case here, right? Jon was flying operating "under the influence" in this instance. His mind was mind was distracted, and he knew that his powers were influx due to his specific biology. He had several instances where he KNEW for a FACT that he was operating at a level of power that he didn't have full say over.

This could then prompt us to explore how Jon's biology works, and how it's different from Clark's. And you could really bring in social media and the news networks into this. Maybe this starts off with public opinion mostly on Jon's. "You're gonna sue Superman? FORE SAVING YOU?" But then as more information comes out about Jon knowingly acting "under the influence" of extra solar radiation (remember there's literally cell phone recording shown of Jon cracking the ground and telling a doctor "just stay back, please. I don't want to accidentally hurt you), it gets a little harder for some people to defend the new kid. A doctor even offered to look at Jon when he clearly looked bad. Bring that guy in as a witness! So you get some people reacting like "oh he did that? Well, I doubt his father would be so reckless." and "these beings are walking nukes! We can't give them a slap on the wrist when they break us on accident because of their negligence!" But we'd also get people firing back with "he saved the guy's life-- while the guy was texting in the street" or "if you could hear everyone in the world screaming for help, and you had the power to help them wouldn't it be more messed up that you didn't try?"

Place in some gags like Damian going "maybe I'll pay the man a visit and make sure a broken arm is the last thing he'll have to worry about". Have some JL members (Wally) come in as character witnesses. Maybe even a really sweet scene where a whole bunch of tweets, emails, letters, and video essays flood in talking about how much Superman means to them.

There's just so much fun to be had and character insight to be found with such a simple idea as "Superman gets sued". You could even come out of this with a new supporting character in the form of "Superman's Lawyer _______". Make them Jon's "Jimmy Olsen" but they're more like Better Call Saul but for superheroes rather than criminals and drug lords. I mean, this wouldn't be the last time Jon might be dealing with legal gymnastics given the fact that he's a public figure with an open identity, and he's a more proactive Superman. So like whenever someone goes "you legally can't do this, Superman!" Our lawyer person can go "hold it right there! Under (insert legal whatever here) my client is within his full rights to be doing this".


Whoa...didn't realize how much of a tangent I just went off on haha

I would love to read this, ... I need to read this, this would be very interesting

[Superlad93]

I would love to read this, ... I need to read this, this would be very interesting

Thanks! So would I. It could be a really neat way of exploring a bunch of aspects about the Superman idea, but in a way that's very specific to Jon and this generation. You've got the news, public opinion, Superman's powers, and Superman as a public figure. But you're remixing it all for Jon and today, so it's social media/everyone has a camera now, Jon's public rep as Superman is yet to be established, hybrid biology, and Jon's identity is public.

It's also a situation Superman can't punch his way out of. And maybe even a situation where he was being reckless and impulsive (an aspect that distinguishes him from Clark), so he's not even sure he's in the right.

[Betinayen]

Thanks! So would I. It could be a really neat way of exploring a bunch of aspects about the Superman idea, but in a way that's very specific to Jon and this generation. You've got the news, public opinion, Superman's powers, and Superman as a public figure. But you're remixing it all for Jon and today, so it's social media/everyone has a camera now, Jon's public rep as Superman is yet to be established, hybrid biology, and Jon's identity is public.

It's also a situation Superman can't punch his way out of. And maybe even a situation where he was being reckless and impulsive (an aspect that distinguishes him from Clark), so he's not even sure he's in the right.

Yes! this all sounds like a great way for Jon to grow personally,because now he doesn't have his father to protect him from these things like he did when he was arrested and jon needs young and modern stories , and I don't see It in his current stories, I think he is in need of friends I like the idea of ​​him having a Jimmy as a friend I honestly would like to read something like that. Jon can get it wrong trying to get it right and it's ok he's a 17 year old boy

[Superlad93]

Yes! this all sounds like a great way for Jon to grow personally,because now he doesn't have his father to protect him from these things like he did when he was arrested And I must add that I also loved the fact that Jon has a Jimmy in his life A friend , I think he is in need of friends I honestly would like to read something like that.

Very good point on Clark not being there to protect him and smooth things like this over for Jon! Clark wouldn't have let Jon fly "under the influence" in the first place, and Jon would've been able to relax and let his powers regulate to normal. And on top of that it really gets into how Jon must be under SO much pressure to live up to the title he now holds. That pressure to perform is likely what made him run him overcompensate and try to save everyone even when shouldn't have been out.

I'm honestly really unhappy that Jon lacks a suitable Jimmy Olsen type of character, and I'm honestly really worried that Jay's character being the way it is will continue to keep Jon from having that sort of friend. I feel like Taylor will say that between having a quirky love interest in Jay and a life long best friend/brother in Damian, Jon doesn't need a "Jimmy". But he'd be so wrong and it would be because he doesn't understand what makes Jimmy so special as an idea. The Jimmy Olsen idea is that of normal and overlooked person meeting their idol and then time and time again showing how impressive they are by just being them.

[Betinayen]

Very good point on Clark not being there to protect him and smooth things like this over for Jon! Clark wouldn't have let Jon fly "under the influence" in the first place, and Jon would've been able to relax and let his powers regulate to normal. And on top of that it really gets into how Jon must be under SO much pressure to live up to the title he now holds. That pressure to perform is likely what made him run him overcompensate and try to save everyone even when shouldn't have been out.

I'm honestly really unhappy that Jon lacks a suitable Jimmy Olsen type of character, and I'm honestly really worried that Jay's character being the way it is will continue to keep Jon from having that sort of friend. I feel like Taylor will say that between having a quirky love interest in Jay and a life long best friend/brother in Damian, Jon doesn't need a "Jimmy". But he'd be so wrong and it would be because he doesn't understand what makes Jimmy so special as an idea. The Jimmy Olsen idea is that of normal and overlooked person meeting their idol and then time and time again showing how impressive they are by just being them.

Yes !! Jon needs friends and this is very clear to me in Jon's stories, I don't like Jon not having friends he should be young having modern history nothing is younger than having friends being in college doing things wrong and trying to get it right he's a 17 year old boy Give Jon his first job could be an internship selling newspapers or even fixing things ,i need to see jon trying something to get a life or at least trying and dividing his time with saving everyone and failing miserably at both , I'll be honest,I see Jon having problems like Clark sometimes has: being identifiable and becoming more of a god . I love Clark, but normally writers prioritize God more than the man who lives in Clark but he's much more of a man than a God to me but despite everything Clark has a life He when he was single had friends , had a job and was still the superman Jon only has parents and the superman ,Jon need to ber more young and more modern

[Superlad93]

Yes !! Jon needs friends and this is very clear to me in Jon's stories, I don't like Jon not having friends he should be young having modern history nothing is younger than having friends being in college doing things wrong and trying to get it right he's a 17 year old boy Give Jon his first job could be an internship selling newspapers or even fixing things ,i need to see jon trying something to get a life or at least trying and dividing his time with saving everyone and failing miserably at both , I'll be honest, I see that Jon is heading for the same problem as Clark going from being identifiable(more human ) and becoming more of a god and I hate it. I love Clark, but normally writers prioritize God more than the man who lives in Clark but he's much more of a man than a God to me.

I have pretty specific ideas on what Jon's job could and should be, and I think it'd be potentially really interesting, but I'm keeping that to myself.

But for now I think Jon going to college, being late for classes, going to parties, and having his first drink would be more than enough contrast and duality between being on as Superman and trying to just be a young adult growing up.

That said, I don't really agree with Taylor wanting to give Jon another secret identity with Jay's help. I think there are far more interesting opportunities for story and character if Jon has to try his best to balance being Superman and himself while he's the most famous person on the planet.

Like, you know how people that play superheroes in movies have to carry themselves differently in their public lives to protect that image and the vested interest of the studios? It's basically that. Tom Holland famously got a little drunk and called a boss at Disney. Like, imagine Jon at a college party taking a sip of beer and someone getting a picture of that and thus starting a whole media shit storm. Or people seeing that he got a B+ on a biology exam becomes national news because its like "is the new Man of Steel not all that bright?"

There's so much you can do with that because it really adds to the pressure of Jon's situation in a compelling way, and it makes his friends, family, and love interest all the more important because that's where he can really relax.