Superman: son of Kal-El

[Iclifton]

I love the idea that superpeople aren't invincible but vulnerable (either physically or psychologically). Btw isn't Jon too OP in SSOKE?

Either that or he just has not been presented with a true threat. I would love to see Jon face someone that makes him realize his mortality. I want to see a more nuanced Jon. I love when Tomasi made him partially vulnerable in his Superman run due to being half human.

[Superlad93]

This whole run would've done better as something more small scale, personal, and character driven. Jon is a character that, as he himself said, has been to the future, space, and other dimensions all before even being old enough to drink. And now he's finally at his final frontier: his present time, home planet, and destiny as Superman. All of the things he's been running from.

You don't start that story off by making it about some crazy X-Men plan and Not-Lex. You make it about him going to college, dating, and figuring out what being Superman means to him. You make him a fish out of water who feels more confident ending a galactic conflict than he does making small talk near the beer keg at a college party or on a normal date that isn't on another planet watching solar flares.

What's really crazy is that when I think of an update to the Golden age that Taylor says this is supposed to be, I'm confused because he did that pretty damn well in his FN Spider-Man run. Small intimate "boots on the ground" stories that balloon out into bigger stories.

After letting us get to really know Jon and how he's acclimating to his long lost home THEN you can start doing something like all of this Post-Human stuff.

[Superlad93]

I love the idea that superpeople aren't invincible but vulnerable (either physically or psychologically). Btw isn't Jon too OP in SSOKE?

I'm a big fan of the idea of flipping the script with how we view a Superman's invulnerability. How interesting would it have been to read about a Superman who actually flinches on reflex when he's about to take a hit from someone (even if realistically it won't hurt like he assumes it will) because he still has the memory and fear of what it felt like to truly be vulnerable even with his powers.

Bendis was strongly implying that he was building towards a Superman with physical special needs/being differently abled, and I just find that to be one of the most powerful idea I've ever heard associated with the character.

_________

As for Jon being OP in SoK? I think that's the whole point, yeah. And as I understand it (from PKJ's words a while back) he's only going to get more powerful somehow. And like the whole Post-Human thing, I'm once again betting this is Taylor's handy work.

He knew he was pitching a bi Superman, and he was likely told of Bendis' plans for the character for 5G and decided that he didn't want the first mainstream queer Superman to also be the "runt of the family" in terms of power. So in the interest of the empowerment of discriminated groups, Jon is now potentially the most powerful Kryptonian in current continuity.

There's a lot to unpack with that, but I personally ultimately feel like there would've been more story pathos to a differently abled Superman who felt more valuable than his family, than what seems to be exclusively a power fantasy for a Superman that happens to be bi. It's especially a missed opportunity because the being bi doesn't directly factor into the expression of power in any direct way like the differently abled idea does. And it's by Taylor's own choice because he doesn't want it to really factor in beyond just dating Jay.

Then we have the potential cringe that is Post-Human Jon getting discriminated against...

[Superlad93]

I love when Tomasi made him partially vulnerable in his Superman run due to being half human.

A neat idea that was quickly back away from and explained away by evil milk. And then Tomasi said that Jon, at 10, was actually supposed to already be far stronger than Clark ever could hope to be, and it was the evil milk that was holding him back.

Seems like Bendis looked back at that and the old Super Sons imaginary stories from the 70s and tossed out the evil milk, and wanted to say something about being differently abled yet still going down in history as the "one true Superman".

[Journey]

Y'all see that bleeding cool interview about how originally Tim was gonna show up & not Damien? This is what I'm talking about when I say they thought making him Bi was enough!

[Journey]

Taylor rights him as General Hero Man Who Is Good And Nice, and it's truly glaring when he finally has an internal thoughts we can read. It may as well just say "what do you suppose a flying guy with a cape would say right here" rather than Taylor actually writing anything.

Once again, I don't care what anyone says, Bendis did this a lot better. In Legion Jon was kind of a charming little horny dork who was easily distracted and hardly ever listened to his team. He had kind of this casual vibe that was just shy of skater kid. And that casual air was helped along by the fact that he assumed himself physically invincible most of the time. He'd often even trivialize the literal life or death space wars they were in and say things like "I think I'm just gonna super speed and end this, okay?" Mon-El may have been a dick about it, but very clearly the apple didn't fall too far from the tree because Jon was flippant and disobedient in his own way...just nicer about it.

Fairly certain Bendis was setting Jon up for the big fall where he gets his arm taken, and that would've shown him that he's not as invincible as he assumed. Shame we didn't get to that moment because of all the behind the scenes stuff. Jon has basically no moments of real pathos on such a level in his publication so far, and it's starting to get really glaring. He doesn't even have a classic knock-down-drag-out fight to his name. That's why I respect the hell out of Bendis for being willing to put him through it.

Yeah as desperate as I am for substance I can't find myself ever giving Bendis any credit his Jon was just as bland IMO just had better art at every corner to bring some life to him, & I actually hated the scar & the attempt to make Jon weak him losing an arm wouldn't have done anything for me but annoyed me you can establish a hero without crippling them forever

[Superlad93]

Yeah as desperate as I am for substance I can't find myself ever giving Bendis any credit his Jon was just as bland IMO just had better art at every corner to bring some life to him, & I actually hated the scar & the attempt to make Jon weak him losing an arm wouldn't have done anything for me but annoyed me you can establish a hero without crippling them forever

A hero can also be "crippled" and a hero though-- even a Superman. And I think that was the point.

I mean Professor X, Scott Summer, and Daredevil are all characters that live with varying degrees of being differently abled, yet they are some of the most skilled and powerful being in comics. Tony Stark even had a literally heart condition for the majority of his time in comics.

But the beauty of it all was that Bendis didn't seem to *just* want to leave it at "and Jon is just the runt of the family, but boy does he try". Bendis set up the idea VERY early on that half Kryptonians could more powerful yet more limited or vulnerable than full ones.

This was the point of Rogol Zaar. Zaar was a half Kryptonian and so powerful that not only would he hand a full powered Clark his ass, but he'd beat the hell out of Zaar and Kara and Clark at once.

Clark even remarked to himself that even though he knew Zaar was powered by the sun, there was more to him that would let him from the strength to overcome anything in his way.

But at the same time Zaar seemed to take more damage than Zod or Clark. But like Jon, Zaar seemed to keep his powers even without the sun so long as he rested and fed himself. Jon showed this on Earth 3(and Earth with no Sun).

Jon wouldn't have simply been "the runt", but he'd have been defined by the fact that he could suffer and remain strong.

[HsssH]

You don't start that story off by making it about some crazy X-Men plan and Not-Lex. You make it about him going to college, dating, and figuring out what being Superman means to him. You make him a fish out of water who feels more confident ending a galactic conflict than he does making small talk near the beer keg at a college party or on a normal date that isn't on another planet watching solar flares.

Sounds like it should be a bit more like Taylor's Nightwing. Which is selling well and I'm probably wrong... but I'd like if his Nightwing was more like his Superman - doing something weird and new. So you know, if he switched his approaches to these books then I'd probably be very happy.

[Superlad93]

Sounds like it should be a bit more like Taylor's Nightwing. Which is selling well and I'm probably wrong... but I'd like if his Nightwing was more like his Superman - doing something weird and new. So you know, if he switched his approaches to these books then I'd probably be very happy.

I agree. But he seems to drunk off the general idea that he's writing Superman-- and a queer one at that-- to feel like he can't do something BIG and attention grabbing.

It then seeps into character work, thus Jon is a vague and general take on a vague and general Superman in terms of voice.

It's clear that Taylor didn't go into this looking to write Jon Kent-Superman, but rather a general revamped take on Superman who is queer. This is story/headlines before character, and not even remotely what Jon needed.

But ultimately it'll do well enough

[The Frog Bros]

Superlad, I think you just perfectly elaborated on my major concern with this whole post-human thing. I'm sweating to add something constructive to your comment but I can't. Some pple asked here when SSOKE would get a new penciller. I wanna know when the book will get a new writer

It's funny but most people here seem to want Taylor off the book, and you can put me in that camp as well. But it seems doubtful it'll happen any time soon though. Not sure about the sales side of things, but it certainly gets the usual heaps of praise for Taylor. In addition, with the newly signed DC exclusive contract, he seems to be pretty entrenched with Jon.

[Journey]

A hero can also be "crippled" and a hero though-- even a Superman. And I think that was the point.

I mean Professor X, Scott Summer, and Daredevil are all characters that live with varying degrees of being differently abled, yet they are some of the most skilled and powerful being in comics. Tony Stark even had a literally heart condition for the majority of his time in comics.

But the beauty of it all was that Bendis didn't seem to *just* want to leave it at "and Jon is just the runt of the family, but boy does he try". Bendis set up the idea VERY early on that half Kryptonians could more powerful yet more limited or vulnerable than full ones.

This was the point of Rogol Zaar. Zaar was a half Kryptonian and so powerful that not only would he hand a full powered Clark his ass, but he'd beat the hell out of Zaar and Kara and Clark at once.

Clark even remarked to himself that even though he knew Zaar was powered by the sun, there was more to him that would let him from the strength to overcome anything in his way.

But at the same time Zaar seemed to take more damage than Zod or Clark. But like Jon, Zaar seemed to keep his powers even without the sun so long as he rested and fed himself. Jon showed this on Earth 3(and Earth with no Sun).

Jon wouldn't have simply been "the runt", but he'd have been defined by the fact that he could suffer and remain strong.

But again you can suffer without losing body parts Bendis set up years of what should have been extreme mental trauma & did absolutely nothing with it I would find delving into all that more interesting than losing an arm in a fight or an eye 1 Future Jon was practically Cyborg that's not needed. Also Jon is still a relatively new character theirs no need to butcher his body this early in the game.

[Superlad93]

Circling back to Jon's power levels in this book, I actually think his greater level of power and the fact that no writer aside from Bendis has really had him physically suffer could've been worked into something that really informed his character in a way that's very different from Clark's.

I'd have liked to see something similar to the contrast between Goku and Gohan in DBZ.

By this I mean that Clark seems to have a natural talent for physical conflict and he's also inherited the El brains. Clark pretty much always knows what to do, and isn't scared to puff his chest out, put some base in his voice, and throwdown with a bully.

But Jon? What if Jon were physically more dominate and powerful than Clark has ever been...but he had no taste for talent for physical conflict? And on top of that, while yes he's a fairly bright kid, he's not a genius. Like what if Jon didn't know how to work the Fortress if the voice commands were off? What if he was a Superman that couldn't figure out some bullshit way to fly around a problem real, real fast and then through some BS science fix it?

Yet he was still physically the most powerful of the family? I think you could get really relatable and fun with a Superman who is essentially an average guy in the body of something close to the Silver age Superman, but with no idea how to work it.

And I think it tracks for the character. Even when Jon went to the far flung future he didn't sit down and learn about a thousand different cultures, learn to fight, or make mental notes of what's to come (outside of the really personal stuff with his dad like any of us would do). What he actually ended up doing was kind of goofing off, making out with his girlfriend, and eating a lot of cool foods. The Legion expected an all knowing champion, but what they got was history's most powerful tourist, and I think that's kind of wonderful, right?

I think there's a very strong personality that you can grow out of that idea. There's a feeling of pragmatism to the most powerful being in the world also being a super average dude. Basically a waaaaaaay more powerful Mark Grayson.

I don't think that's a take on Superman that we've quite seen yet, and to me Jon already has it built within his character to do that rather than what being done with him now.

[Superlad93]

But again you can suffer without losing body parts Bendis set up years of what should have been extreme mental trauma & did absolutely nothing with it I would find delving into all that more interesting than losing an arm in a fight or an eye 1 Future Jon was practically Cyborg that's not needed. Also Jon is still a relatively new character theirs no need to butcher his body this early in the game.

Of course you can, but framing a character being an amputee as something that ruins or harms them as a character is not a great thing to say or think.

I also think you're glassing right over the idea of the most able-bodied character in faction-- literally a character defined by how perfect and indomitable his body is-- having an offspring that is now in part defined by disability being a narrative goldmine that was already built into Jon from the first arc of Tomasi' run.

I think there's a real underrepresentation for heroes with disabilities in superhero fiction (really, fiction in general). And that makes so little sense to me given the fact that everyone like Taylor is all like "everyone should have heroes that look like them", yet in the space where maybe-- just maybe-- it would be a really good idea let some young amputee kid know that they can be thought of as strong (and not in the condescending "oh they're so brave" way) indestructible. And in my opinion, the best IP and the best character to have done that with today would've been Superman and Jon Kent.

Your dad is a Greek statue of a man, and all you want to do is live up to that, but the way that your body works-- the genetics you were born with-- is stopping you from doing that the exact same way as him. Yet someday somehow you're going to go down in history as The One True Superman.

To me that's needed today in a way that (as a black man myself) I don't think a book about Miles Morales becoming the black version of every character in the Marvel universe is needed (yes this is real), or a movie where about a black Clark Kent in the 30s fighting the KKK is needed. It's just more patting themselves on the back for the same trick and thinking that covers all their bases. No. The average person can't count the number of disabled heroes in comics. Hell, most of those heroes aren't even disabled anymore (Prof X, Barbra, Thor, and Tony Stark).

[Journey]

Of course you can, but framing a character being an amputee as something that ruins or harms them as a character is not a great thing to say or think.

I also think you're glassing right over the idea of the most able-bodied character in faction-- literally a character defined by how perfect and indomitable his body is-- having an offspring that is now in part defined by disability being a narrative goldmine that was already built into Jon from the first arc of Tomasi' run.

I think there's a real underrepresentation for heroes with disabilities in superhero fiction (really, fiction in general). And that makes so little sense to me given the fact that everyone like Taylor is all like "everyone should have heroes that look like them", yet in the space where maybe-- just maybe-- it would be a really good idea let some young amputee kid know that they can be thought of as strong (and not in the condescending "oh they're so brave" way) indestructible. And in my opinion, the best IP and the best character to have done that with today would've been Superman and Jon Kent.

Your dad is a Greek statue of a man, and all you want to do is live up to that, but the way that your body works-- the genetics you were born with-- is stopping you from doing that the exact same way as him. Yet someday somehow you're going to go down in history as The One True Superman.

To me that's needed today in a way that (as a black man myself) I don't think a book about Miles Morales becoming the black version of every character in the Marvel universe is needed (yes this is real), or a movie where about a black Clark Kent in the 30s fighting the KKK is needed. It's just more patting themselves on the back for the same trick and thinking that covers all their bases. No. The average person can't count the number of disabled heroes in comics. Hell, most of those heroes aren't even disabled anymore (Prof X, Barbra, Thor, and Tony Stark).

Yeah I get the story beats & all that I think what it comes down to is I don't want that for Jon pretty much everything I liked about him before is all but gone I don't want that fate for him, he still youngish let him develop trying to make him some symbol for something huge is the reason he's so bland now. If someone has to lose body parts pick Connor he's got nothing going on.

[Superlad93]

trying to make him some symbol for something huge is the reason he's so bland now.

No, the reason he's bland is because Taylor is hell bent on writing the general idea of a Superman who is queer and happens to be named Jon.

I think defining the threshold between the feeling of childhood indestructability and the more tangle riggers of adulthood would've been perfect for Jon not as a concept but as a character.

As he was he had no defining no-coming-back moments in his life that define a heroic journey. Discovering the idea of mortality first hand would've defined that threshold the same way Uncle Ben and the death of the Kents did for Peter and Clark. But uniquely it wouldn't be about learning about being responsible or that other's lives are not forever. Rather it would be a wake up call for him.

And you have to remember the greater context of what 5G was. Every time a legacy moves into the main role there is a defining moment. Usually it's a death or a character leaving (Dick, Wally, Carol, Miles, etc), but 5G would've left Clark alive AND on Earth. So smartly you need another moment of change for Jon that truly signifies the next chapter in his life. It's character work and basic story telling.