Superman: son of Kal-El

[Blue22]

I disagree.It's better he got rejected.Jon is the superboy.Superboy was never meant to be a sidekick of superman.Superman doesn't have one,accept for jimmy.It isn't a robin title.By extension a team that was a get together of sidekick would be out of reach for superboy.

I mean....Jon pretty much was/is Clark's sidekick, regardless. Every definition of sidekick pretty much fits the bill for this particular Superboy. And there's nothing wrong with that. Even when he's older, he's a kid who's learning from his dad. Of course that's the role he'll default to while they're working together.

But that aside, treating the Titans as just a gettogether of sidekicks does an extreme disservice to what they've been since, like, the 80s (And not even that accurate of an assertion considering the most well known combination of Titans only included one "sidekick"). Yes half the roster still tends to be legacy characters but those books are also where a lot of those characters do end up growing, outside the shadow of the heroes that mentored them.

One of the best examples I can think of, outside of the original five, is Cassie. Aside from a very...disturbing roadblock when Conner died, the amount of growth that she went through during her time as a Titan (pre-New 52) was what made her my favorite Wonder Girl. Whether it was her growth into the team's leader, her subplot with Ares, or her friendship with Supergirl; Cassie (and, to a lesser extent, her Young Justice teammates) really grew up and came into her own when she became a Titan. Because that's what that team is supposed to be about. Young heroes growing and coming into their own in an environment away from their mentors (if they have any. Again, only like half of the more well known Titans are "sidekicks"). If growing up under the Titans had even a small chance at yielding the same kind of growth for Jon that it did for characters like Cassie, the NTT, or....honestly, even Damian's second team, then I'd want him there in a heartbeat.

The only legacy characters who (arguably) didn't benefit from any of his time as a Titan was Damian. Which is a shame because I actually had high hopes for him on that team. But that's a totally different rant.

[Superboy-Prime]

Jon is the superboy.

Superboy is Clark Kent. Jon doesn't even wear trunks!

[garazza]

I might have added it too late, but I don't think Kal on Warworld was necessarily the type of change-up that FS was built around to generate much hype. In a limited capacity and Future State being of the design it was, to me it makes sense the draw goes to the more different approaches. Am I reaching? In my experience not really. Its pretty much the Elseworlds effect. Vastly wild and out there tends to be more accepted when it doesn't necessarily "count" in general canon sensibilities. Or at least isn't replacing the familiar. Make these things regular directions though and the reception tends to be very different.

Couldn't agree with the bold more.

As far as an embargo on Jon in specific, I'm not really accounting for Jon purists, tbh. I'm more counting on the idea that the general Superman fanbase does not respond well to Superman losing a book, nor the idea that there's this general specter hanging around that Clark is close to the end of his Superman adventures. Its more about Clark than Jon. I think DC is overestimating his overall appeal over Clark, not just the idea that too many fans don't like him as an adult over a child. And I mean, I believe that to be true too but I'm not necessarily counting on any potential boycotts there amounting to much one way or another. To me its Clark fans first and foremost who will speak the most loudly over all this.

If I'm wrong on all this? Well to quote a classic scene, "Mooney, first bottle's on me, let me get my hat."

There is no one factor that will ever tilt a situation in favor of one or another. A boycott by Jon fans will only depress sales by so much that DC could brush it off, but the boycott isn't the only thing at play. It's the coalition of factors, like the age up boycott and the anger at Clark's diminution in favor of a character that, despite a very vocal following, was not necessarily a welcome addition to the Superman mythos, that will ultimately doom this book. Having a book for Jon and a book for Clark is a decent compromise, but not one that will play out well.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I might have added it too late, but I don't think Kal on Warworld was necessarily the type of change-up that FS was built around to generate much hype. In a limited capacity and Future State being of the design it was, to me it makes sense the draw goes to the more different approaches. Am I reaching? In my experience not really. Its pretty much the Elseworlds effect. Vastly wild and out there tends to be more accepted when it doesn't necessarily "count" in general canon sensibilities. Or at least isn't replacing the familiar. Make these things regular directions though and the reception tends to be very different.

The World of Wars books were overpriced ($7,99), they costed 2 dollars more than the Superman of Metropolis issues. I assume this was also a factor of not being ordered as much or more than the FS books featuring Jon.

[Blue22]

Superboy is Clark Kent. Jon doesn't even wear trunks!

You...uh...Don't need trunks to be Superboy. Hell, you don't even need them to be Superman. All you need is the title. Which he has. And he wasn't even the first one to inherit it from Clark. It's been almost 30 years since Clark was the only "Superboy"

[OopsIdiditagain]

Couldn't agree with the bold more.



There is no one factor that will ever tilt a situation in favor of one or another. A boycott by Jon fans will only depress sales by so much that DC could brush it off, but the boycott isn't the only thing at play. It's the coalition of factors, like the age up boycott and the anger at Clark's diminution in favor of a character that, despite a very vocal following, was not necessarily a welcome addition to the Superman mythos, that will ultimately doom this book. Having a book for Jon and a book for Clark is a decent compromise, but not one that will play out well.

That depends on how many people aren't interested in the "new" superman. (I wonder why DC didn't include that in the title? I don't think most people who haven't read comics know Kal El = Clark Kent.)

[Superboy-Prime]

You...uh...Don't need trunks to be Superboy. Hell, you don't even need them to be Superman. All you need is the title. Which he has. And he wasn't even the first one to inherit it from Clark. It's been almost 30 years since Clark was the only "Superboy"

The first Superboy wore trunks. Clark Kent is the original, the clone and the kid are the ones filling his boots.

[OopsIdiditagain]

The first Superboy wore trunks. Clark Kent is the original, the clone and the kid are the ones filling his boots.

So you want every Superboy to be a Clark ripoff?

[Yoda]

The majority of Superman fans tend to be very generally "Superman" fans. The utter neglect the "Clark Kent" side of the character has gotten over the last decade seems to point to a least some level of apathy towards that aspect among the comic audience. (Mass media seems different cause there is definitely evidence that the Clark Kent side has a pretty good audience there. Maybe subing Jon in on Earth will be a step to far, or maybe solid Young Superman adventures combined with a writer who has a knack for telling those type of stories will bring in enough new readers to cover for the Clark Kent purists. Taylor is pretty hot right now and on the upswing in popularity, so that will definitely give the book a little more of a fanbase than just typical Superman fans. Something that definitely could not be said for Tomasi, Jurgens, or Bendis really. And he's likely going to keep Clark as a presence in the books even if he is off in space.

Everyone here has their own version of "Not my Superman" that they would love to be able to attribute to a "majority" of fans, myself included. But in reality, the books have a pretty static audience that doesn't seem to stray very far afield. Whether Jon getting the Earth while Clark gets space will be enough to give this book Supergirl like numbers remains to be seen, but at least from all available evidence there is an audience for these type of stories and they are actively trying to give fans a little bit of everything right now instead of just forcing all the same flavor.

[manwhohaseverything]

I mean....Jon pretty much was/is Clark's sidekick, regardless. Every definition of sidekick pretty much fits the bill for this particular Superboy. And there's nothing wrong with that. Even when he's older, he's a kid who's learning from his dad. Of course that's the role he'll default to while they're working together.

That's like saying clark kent and bruce wayne were sidekick.Dickgrayson and maybe jimmy are the first sidekicks.There is a reason for it.Legion isn't a group of teen sidekicks.They are heroes of their own in far future.They are kids.sure.But so is spiderman. I never meant it as derogetory either.if i did,jon got rejected by them.What does that make jon?I am saying.Sidekicks have a role besides their mentors. Superboy wasn't created to complete superman's cast or give some levity or serious or whatever to superman.Superboy was created to sell to kids superman as kid version.

As for jon having been trained by clark.That is sidekick-ish.But then,pa kent or jor el depending on things has taught clark or trained him.In the donner movie,Jor el was the one who trained him.Smallville has pa kent doing It.doesn't mean Clark is their sidekick.The difference is Clark can keep up with jon.Even then Clark only helped him with laser vision.Jon was running around with damian,kathy,titans,legion..etc.He learned things like flight and other powers on his own.I mean,he blew up as part of that.Jon's adventures with clark is far less.All i am saying is,Superboy is an independent entity.It should have always stayed that way.Any team that makes sense for a superboy is A bunch kids that think they are adults.It's isn't spiderboy.It's spiderman.Heck! i could say.superboy takes damian along to the future for same reason.The guys need to loosen up as "adults" and the kid needs to realise that he is kid "Superman". They even made the kid into a misfit and an outcast with titans rejection.The original superboy felt the same in the farmlands.

Superboy is Clark Kent. Jon doesn't even wear trunks!

Sure,sure.Here is an idea.Even clark kent can't be that superboy today.Because he simply won't be able to act like that superboy.He can't be sold to the audience either today.by definition,Something can only be called a duck if it acts like it.So,superboy doesn't or can't exist in 2021 is what you are saying.

[Superboy-Prime]

So you want every Superboy to be a Clark ripoff?

They already are.

[manwhohaseverything]

They already are.

who did clark ripoff?Cough! cough! a bunch of guys like zorro,hugo danner,john carter..etc looks intensely.

[Superlad93]

This is a fairly big swing, but based on the July solicitation for Bendis' Justice League, and the fact that Clark is not only leaving Earth-- but also forming a team that's directly referred as team of heroes that "don't scream Justice League", I think it's more or less safe to assume that he's off the team by the fall this year.

My first guess was that Kara would take on Clark's role on the Justice League because of all of the talk of her being recognized for her power and ability being equal to Clark in the coming era. But seeing the way Jon is being pushed *so* hard, and the talk of bigger plans coming his way as her grows in power and importance, I'm finding it hard to believe that it'll just be confined to his one book. And, frankly, there's this feeling of "making room" for Jon ascension as Superman of Earth. Clark's off world, Kara's off world (for now), and Conner is on the SS. So, what happens when Kara gets back? She'd be a safety net especially if she's now regarded as just as strong as Clark was. And the thing is, we've actually seen DC leave Conner in limbo and then later say no to a pitch for a mini for him specifically because they wanted to give Jon room.

So how do you work that? Where does Kara go that lets her be recognized as Clark's equal but isn't the Justice League, AND doesn't undercut Jon as having the responsibility of looking after Earth put on his shoulders? Kara joins The United. That's the new United Planets team that Bendis introduced in Superman issue 28, and will be back in Justice League #64. What's most interesting about them is they are compared to a "galactic Justice League" and "the first Legion of Super-Heroes". They are basically a new version of LEGION from the 80s.

Why Kara though? Well, look at all the signs. Since Bendis' run started there's been a more conscious push to keep her in space. Future State has her leave Earth because Jon has the job, and she wants to get out from under the Superman shadow. Now King's new book sees her go to space *again*. I doubt so much recent space adventuring ends with her just going back to Earth to be on the Justice League. Also, if this is in fact "the first Legion of Super-Heroes" then it'll need an Earth/Krypton rep. On top of all that issue 28 of Superman where The United is first introduced....literally one panel later, Kara shows up out of nowhere after having not been in the story at all, and then shows a shared history with one of the members of The United. And as Bendis said in a recent interview, the last few issues of Superman were written while he knew he was going to take over JL, so he was sowing a bunch of seeds.

__________

On top of all that, issue 65 of Justice League says that Black Adam will declare himself the leader of the team. Clearly that's not a thing that can happen if Clark (or even Bruce, and maybe even Arthur) stays on the team. For one, Bendis immediately shows the reader that in the question of Black Adam vs Superman, Superman is the winner and not going to put up with BA's **** even if he thinks he can change.

So the only way for ( what is clearly the part of the main gimmick of this JL run) a Black Adam lead Justice League team to work is if the characters who can challenge him for the role are not there. But in the modern era you *need* a Superman (and Batman) for the a Justice League incarnation to feel real. Kara can't be the Superman in question not because she isn't qualified, but rather because she actually *is* qualified, and likely wouldn't put up with BA's **** (especially the way Bendis writes her. Very self assured). But, a wet behind the ears Superman who's only 17 and is characterized as not even wanting to take on this role to begin with? Yeah, he'd let Black Adam take the lead. Jon doesn't even want the pressure of being Superman, so why would he want to also want the most power heroes on Earth to look to him to make the plays?

Interestingly enough, that'll leave Jon as the only Superman character who has a traditional solo. Action seems like it's going to be continuing the Superman & The Authority status quo, Conner is in SS, and Kara may be with The United ("Supergirl & The United"?). That's a 180 from the last 5 years where Jon's exclusively only been in other people's books or in team books.

[Superboy-Prime]

So the only way for ( what is clearly the part of the main gimmick of this JL run) a Black Adam lead Justice League team to work is if the characters who can challenge him for the role are not there. But in the modern era you *need* a Superman (and Batman) for the a Justice League incarnation to feel real.

This is interesting, because as much as people talk about Damian, there's been a real disconnection, even in Future State, between Jon and his other half of the World's Finest duo, the Next Batman aka Jace Fox. But given Tynion's Batman run seems to be going on indefinitely, unless he takes over 'Tec, I've got a feeling Jon's major arc in Justice League will be establishing a relationship with Bruce Wayne. Probably that of a mentorship, but them being equals would be quite interesting.

[Superlad93]

This is interesting, because as much as people talk about Damian, there's been a real disconnection, even in Future State, between Jon and his other half of the World's Finest duo, the Next Batman aka Jace Fox. But given Tynion's Batman run seems to be going on indefinitely, unless he takes over 'Tec, I've got a feeling Jon's major arc in Justice League will be establishing a relationship with Bruce Wayne. Probably that of a mentorship, but them being equals would be quite interesting.

Ridley and DC seem to be good with slowly building to Jace taking over once Tynion is done (and he has said that Batman and Joker are his last two projects at DC), and this includes Jon and Jace having a dynamic far closer to Post-Crisis (coworkers with mutual respect) Superman and Batman rather than the Silver Age one DC keeps snapping Clark and Bruce back to one all's said and done. And I think that's intentional as a means to create a divide between the two eras.

The other half to Jon's World's Finest is actually Yara.

I'd be more than interested in seeing Jon and Bruce's dynamic on display. Along with Jon and Dick Grayson (that will likely be explored given Taylor writes both books), it's a dynamic that I think is worth looking into.