Superman: son of Kal-El

[oneveryfineday]

They didn't put Jon in Action Comics because they'd be stupid to get rid of Clark when the character has loyal fans who keep buying.

They didn't put Tom Taylor in it for... well, maybe they didn't want to take spotlight away from Jon, maybe they didn't think Tom was the right choice for the cosmic direction they wanted for Clark.

Funny thing, Taylor actually requested the Jon Superman book despite not being on the shortlist, which speaks for his love of the character I think.

The concept of being placed in the most important job in the world, and being expected to uphold a certain standard of heroics set by the Superman before you.

Jon's story is of both upholding a legacy, and seeing where the cracks in it are and trying to better it. You actually can't do that with Clark. Clark is the start of his legacy. Neither Jor-El, Lara, Martha, or Pa were superheroes for Clark to have to live up to as far as the whole world is concerned.

Also, the very simple idea that this is a Superman who is 17 while the full on DCU is up and running. Functionally you can never do that with Clark because that doesn't just de age the whole DCU, but rather it makes quite a few aspects of his particular myth impossible in the present day. Jon's is an idea similar to Spider-Man: a boy having to play the role of a man, and gradually grow into it.

That metaphor in itself is exploding with story potential. Hell, a Superman as a freshmen in college as the status is already an extremely fresh idea that Clark can't replicate even with a reboot that leaves him unmarried because that takes away to much of his personal myth. Even making Clark (specifically) that young in comics these days is pushing it. Back in the New 52 I remember how quite a few people would rant about how Clark looked and acted like they should address him as Superboy rather than Superman even though he was 22. And Clark being unmarried in this day and age is even less likely given the TV show, so that's just a wheelhouse Clark can't actually play in with any present day main continuity story.

I always enjoy your takes. To add to that, what they're doing with Jon's secret identity can't be replicated with Clark either. For Clark, having the secret identity is a sacred pillar to the Superman mythos as it informs us of his psychology and relationship with the world. Thus, Clark outing himself comes as a late act reveal. In the comics it's a reward--we see that afters years of Clark hiding himself from the world he finds himself accepted by it, he keeps his job, his contingency plans work out, and his status quo is maintained or bettered.

But for Jon, the loss of secret identity is a first act threat. And that's going to give him a different kind of superhero career at the start.

When people suggested that DC might want to tell stories with Jon that you couldn't do with Clark, I initially didn't consider anything beyond the Superman mythos remixed into a younger model and some new love interests. I'm glad to be wrong. You can actually start knocking down pillars and no one gives a hoot when it's Jon because it's fresh instead of a writer trying to piss over sacred canon. Hell, that means there are stories with Jon that you can't even tell with New 52 Clark. If the writers are good then Jon could really carve out a special place for himself in the mythos.

[garazza]

Funny thing, Taylor actually requested the Jon Superman book despite not being on the shortlist, which speaks for his love of the character I think.



I always enjoy your takes. To add to that, what they're doing with Jon's secret identity can't be replicated with Clark either. For Clark, having the secret identity is a sacred pillar to the Superman mythos as it informs us of his psychology and relationship with the world. Thus, Clark outing himself comes as a late act reveal. In the comics it's a reward--we see that afters years of Clark hiding himself from the world he finds himself accepted by it, he keeps his job, his contingency plans work out, and his status quo is maintained or bettered.

But for Jon, the loss of secret identity is a first act threat. And that's going to give him a different kind of superhero career at the start.

When people suggested that DC might want to tell stories with Jon that you couldn't do with Clark, I initially didn't consider anything beyond the Superman mythos remixed into a younger model and some new love interests. I'm glad to be wrong. You can actually start knocking down pillars and no one gives a hoot when it's Jon because it's fresh instead of a writer trying to piss over sacred canon. Hell, that means there are stories with Jon that you can't even tell with New 52 Clark. If the writers are good then Jon could really carve out a special place for himself in the mythos.

But couldn't they have waited for him to grow up naturally and normally, so that not only do we get all the things you guys are excited about in few decades, but in those few decades we get a coming of age story they can do with no other character except Jon? The sooner they de-age him and get back on course, the better.

[Quinlan58]

But couldn't they have waited for him to grow up naturally and normally, so that not only do we get all the things you guys are excited about in few decades, but in those few decades we get a coming of age story they can do with no other character except Jon? The sooner they de-age him and get back on course, the better.

I've got a theory that Jon is DC's failsafe in case the copyright laws aren't changed and they lose exclusivity to Clark in 2034. In that theory, DC may not have thought they had decades to build him up and decided to do it this way so they could establish Jon Kent as a valid Superman (as valid as his father) before 2034.

[Superlad93]

I always enjoy your takes. To add to that, what they're doing with Jon's secret identity can't be replicated with Clark either. For Clark, having the secret identity is a sacred pillar to the Superman mythos as it informs us of his psychology and relationship with the world. Thus, Clark outing himself comes as a late act reveal. In the comics it's a reward--we see that afters years of Clark hiding himself from the world he finds himself accepted by it, he keeps his job, his contingency plans work out, and his status quo is maintained or bettered.

But for Jon, the loss of secret identity is a first act threat. And that's going to give him a different kind of superhero career at the start.

When people suggested that DC might want to tell stories with Jon that you couldn't do with Clark, I initially didn't consider anything beyond the Superman mythos remixed into a younger model and some new love interests. I'm glad to be wrong. You can actually start knocking down pillars and no one gives a hoot when it's Jon because it's fresh instead of a writer trying to piss over sacred canon. Hell, that means there are stories with Jon that you can't even tell with New 52 Clark. If the writers are good then Jon could really carve out a special place for himself in the mythos.

Exactly! And right back at you. I always enjoy reading your takes too.

There is no in continuity version of Clark where he's Superman at 17, a freshmen in college while the outer DCU has already progressed and been established, with a totally public identity. That's just not a version of Clark Kent that's actually possible or palpable for main continuity. It's very safe to say that's a Jon Kent thing.

You make a very wonderful point about how the secret identity reveal is a Clark's late in the game reveal/reward, and how it's Jon's first act threat. From this point on Jon's Superman is already a different animal from Clark's.


And I think Taylor framing Jon's Superman as the anti-Injustice Superman is smarter than people are giving it credit. Most seem to be under the impression that the anti-Injustice Superman is just normal Superman, but Taylor has made it clear that like Injustice, this is the story of a Superman who is willing to change the world, but unlike Injustice it's "with a heart full of hope". Part of the reason why Injustice is popular because it breaks the conventions of the old son and dance of classic heroes vs villains, and it has Superman (for worse) pushing things forwarding and making change. That's the thesis for Taylor's Jon Kent: a Superman who pushes things forward. Strangely enough, I thin

[garazza]

I've got a theory that Jon is DC's failsafe in case the copyright laws aren't changed and they lose exclusivity to Clark in 2034. In that theory, DC may not have thought they had decades to build him up and decided to do it this way so they could establish Jon Kent as a valid Superman (as valid as his father) before 2034.

That's totally in line with corporate thinking, but I'm personally just waiting for conventions to start back up so at DC panels I can just point blank ask the culprits why they aged up Jon and make everyone else in the room feel awkward.

[oneveryfineday]

But couldn't they have waited for him to grow up naturally and normally, so that not only do we get all the things you guys are excited about in few decades, but in those few decades we get a coming of age story they can do with no other character except Jon? The sooner they de-age him and get back on course, the better.

Yeah, they could've. If they never gave us older Jon I would've been content with the old status quo and enjoyed reading his adventures as a kid. But with what we have now I wouldn't be happy with a reset and then having to wait until I'm a senior citizen to get older Jon stories again. DC obviously has other plans, especially if Jon was created to be Superman from the start. We're still getting a coming of age story with Jon though, but instead of a kid growing into a teen it's now a teen growing into a young man. But I know it's not what you wanted and I sympathize with that.

Exactly! And right back at you. I always enjoy reading your takes too.

There is no in continuity version of Clark where he's Superman at 17, a freshmen in college while the outer DCU has already progressed and been established, with a totally public identity. That's just not a version of Clark Kent that's actually possible or palpable for main continuity. It's very safe to say that's a Jon Kent thing.

You make a very wonderful point about how the secret identity reveal is a Clark's late in the game reveal/reward, and how it's Jon's first act threat. From this point on Jon's Superman is already a different animal from Clark's.


And I think Taylor framing Jon's Superman as the anti-Injustice Superman is smarter than people are giving it credit. Most seem to be under the impression that the anti-Injustice Superman is just normal Superman, but Taylor has made it clear that like Injustice, this is the story of a Superman who is willing to change the world, but unlike Injustice it's "with a heart full of hope". Part of the reason why Injustice is popular because it breaks the conventions of the old son and dance of classic heroes vs villains, and it has Superman (for worse) pushing things forwarding and making change. That's the thesis for Taylor's Jon Kent: a Superman who pushes things forward. Strangely enough, I thin

Yeah, I like how you can take one story concept--such as the identity reveal--overlay it on Clark and Jon in the same continuity, and get two different Superman stories. That alone should be proof enough that Jon isn't like his dad, right? And you actually have this great setup where you have the perspective of a matured Superman and a young Superman to contrast or clash, with the added drama of it between parent and child, and even if they're not necessarily in the same place.

The Injustice-Superman/Jon comparisons work really well too, especially since with Jon you can commit to concepts that could only remain as Elseworlds deconstructions for Clark. It just adds a whole new dynamism to the mythos. I'm looking forward to how much they can play around with the status quo and what new things they can give us.

[Vordan]

Say whatever you want about Taylor as a writer you like or don't like, but never say the man can't sell a character. He was the head writer, creator, and producer for his own successful cartoon show afterall. And I expect that sweetened the deal of getting him to launch a new Superman for DC given the fact 5G ideas were heavily rumored to be "optioned" for TV, film, and cartoons, and that's why there's still such a big push for them.

I do wonder when or if any of that will still happen, given that for right now everything is still starring versions of the OG Trinity. Outside of Jon or Jordan potentially getting a “Superman: Son of Kal-El” series if the actors/networks are up for it, can’t see any opportunities in the near future to adapt this stuff. Even the new animated movie universe they’re starting up looks like it’s going to pace itself more slowly and focus on the classics.

But they’re already adapting Injustice and they’re probably talking about adapting DCeased as well, so Taylor’s stuff has a high probability of getting adapted.

Funny thing, Taylor actually requested the Jon Superman book despite not being on the shortlist, which speaks for his love of the character I think.



I always enjoy your takes. To add to that, what they're doing with Jon's secret identity can't be replicated with Clark either. For Clark, having the secret identity is a sacred pillar to the Superman mythos as it informs us of his psychology and relationship with the world. Thus, Clark outing himself comes as a late act reveal. In the comics it's a reward--we see that afters years of Clark hiding himself from the world he finds himself accepted by it, he keeps his job, his contingency plans work out, and his status quo is maintained or bettered.

But for Jon, the loss of secret identity is a first act threat. And that's going to give him a different kind of superhero career at the start.

When people suggested that DC might want to tell stories with Jon that you couldn't do with Clark, I initially didn't consider anything beyond the Superman mythos remixed into a younger model and some new love interests. I'm glad to be wrong. You can actually start knocking down pillars and no one gives a hoot when it's Jon because it's fresh instead of a writer trying to piss over sacred canon. Hell, that means there are stories with Jon that you can't even tell with New 52 Clark. If the writers are good then Jon could really carve out a special place for himself in the mythos.

Where’d you hear that? Do you know who was on the shortlist, I’m very curious to know. Johnson wasn’t, he wasn’t even going to be involved with Superman at all for 5G, curious who they had in mind.

Yeah Jon simply gets more freedom to push the boundaries of what Superman can be, while Clark has very specific expectations about who he is and how he operates that prohibit certain stuff outside of Elseworlds. I’m interested to see Jon operate and act in a different way from his father, curious to see who his friends and LIs will be outside of Damian and the Legion of Superheroes.

[manwhohaseverything]

I am just gonna say this...jon ain't going nowhere(as of now).unless some drastic changes happen up top.. Also,love adult jon in things like superman of metropolis(now there is a moses figure),dceased, Morrison's blackstars..etc.even though taylor writes jon as clark clone.One story in the future state had jon playing heavenly father savior figure.But that's one book.jon literally was a power ranger in another book.This idea that nobody else gets adult jon is not true.Especially since jon has been written well by others.As long as they are creative with the character and not stagnate.it will stick around.

As for kid jon being clark clone?nah!kid jon is pretty much silverage superboy done for the modern audience.You got clark and lois being reluctant to the whole ordeal.You got a kid who is energetic,goofy, passionate..etc.A kid who treats it like a swashbuckling adventure realising he bit off more than he can chew when things like him blowing up and being tortured by Manchester black..etc happened.

[Vordan]

They couldn’t even keep Damian dead for a year, and the readers HATED him, and I’m sure plenty of DC creators did too considering Damian makes Bruce look old and he pushed Tim out the door which I’m sure made Tim fanboys like Tynion mad. Jon isn’t going anywhere outside of another hard reboot, and that’s not happening any time soon.

[oneveryfineday]

Where’d you hear that? Do you know who was on the shortlist, I’m very curious to know. Johnson wasn’t, he wasn’t even going to be involved with Superman at all for 5G, curious who they had in mind.

Some months ago Taylor teased that he had two DC ongoings, one that he was approached for and one he had asked. After Nightwing was announced he confirmed he had been approached for it, which means he had asked for Jon’s book. Taylor might’ve deleted the tweet so take with a grain of salt, but it’s such a specific detail I’m sure I remembered it right.

Superlad can correct me on the shortlist since he’s the one I got the info from, but Sean Lewis said in his Future State interview that DC’s editor was looking between an old fan-favorite writer, a popular writer, and an unknown writer for Jon’s book. Lewis said he was the unknown choice. The others are speculation. Bendis was going to be on the book per Bleeding Cool I believe, and Superlad speculated that Fraction could’ve been the other option.

[Iclifton]

[QUOTE=Vordan;5640267]They couldn’t even keep Damian dead for a year, and the readers HATED him, and I’m sure plenty of DC creators did too considering Damian makes Bruce look old and he pushed Tim out the door which I’m sure made Tim fanboys like Tynion mad. Jon isn’t going anywhere outside of another hard reboot, and that’s not happening any time soon.[/QUOTE

Damien was no where near hated when Morrison killed him.Not even close. People were pissed Damian died. He was brought back due to fan demand. I have no idea where you get the idea Damian didn’t have fans. Preposterous.

[kryptonian]

[QUOTE=Iclifton;5640300]

They couldn’t even keep Damian dead for a year, and the readers HATED him, and I’m sure plenty of DC creators did too considering Damian makes Bruce look old and he pushed Tim out the door which I’m sure made Tim fanboys like Tynion mad. Jon isn’t going anywhere outside of another hard reboot, and that’s not happening any time soon.[/QUOTE

Damien was no where near hated when Morrison killed him.Not even close. People were pissed Damian died. He was brought back due to fan demand. I have no idea where you get the idea Damian didn’t have fans. Preposterous.

That doesn’t inspire confidence

I am not sure Jon has fans after his age up

[Journey]

That doesn’t inspire confidence

I am not sure Jon has fans after his age up

Probably not as many but I'm sure he got some, why IDK

[garazza]

That doesn’t inspire confidence

I am not sure Jon has fans after his age up

The only ones I've found have been on this forum.

[kryptonian]

DC "hates" Jon so much that they put off Conner returning into continuity specifically so Jon could have full room to stretch his legs as both a half Kryptonian and Superboy. DC's hate for the character continued when after Conner was brought back and named co Superboy, and both Bendis and one other writer both pitched Conner Kent solo minis DC said no because they didn't want anything even remotely clashing with Jon.

More often than not DC's shown to bend over backwards to make sure Jon isn't distressed. It's a similar situation to Damian, but it's kind of more of a big deal because this is Clark with a kid rather than Bruce with a Robin who happens to be his bio son. Jon's even the only 5G/next gen character to not only get his own book-- but inherit said book from one of DC's big three. Jace and Yara can't say that. Jackson can't even get an ongoing (though that's actually better than Arthur himself)

DC plays Jon close to the vest in a way that I've only seen with there mainstays like Bruce, Clark, and Dick.

I even have a long standing theory on why the Jon in Superman and Lois doesn't have powers yet is also shown to be almost ludicrously good and understanding and will apparently stay that way with no chance of ever breaking bad for even a moment like you'd expect from this sort of story. It all comes down to the possibility that they're so precious with how Jon comes off, that the show had to create Jordan to accommodate the tougher ideas they wanted to tackle with Superman's son. And this wouldn't be the first time the writers of that show had to shuffle around a character for off screen reasons (John Henry apparently was supposed to actually be alt Lex.)

How close they keep him to the vest will have its ups and down like has with other characters of that level of status to DC, but similar to then, he's likely always going to have a place at the table in a way that other characters just won't.

The only reason he has a place on the table is because of their unrealistic expectations that he will be successful as Superman and will get his ass kicked off the table and out of existence when those expectations aren’t met

Which is going to happen because we are talking about a thoroughly loathed version of a character that stopped being popular after his age up and whose fans are pretty much exclusively kid Jon fans

If you are a Superman fan...you do not care because he isn’t Clark

If you are a Jon fan...you boycott this because most Jon fans are kid Jon fans

If you are a Superman fan who dislikes the marriage...you don’t read this title because it is a golden opportunity to get rid of a pillar of the marriage by assuring it has low sales

This title appeals to NO ONE who matters...with no legion of superheroes to boost his sales, and Tom Taylor’s brand isn’t anything to write home about when it comes to boosting sales, look at the suicide squad run and how that ended in a long fart sales wise

That is literally the only reason he isn’t dead and erased, he is being protected by the delusional remnants of didio’s regime that want some parts of 5G to happen, who want to believe that 5G is salvageable


When it fails...which it will because Jon isn’t Clark...he gets erased or de-aged

And the former looks unlikely and the latter looks inevitable, simply because Superman as a franchise is known to squander decent ideas and there is an army of writers that don’t want Superman to be a dad because it ages him