Is Spider-Man Still Marvel's Flagship Superhero?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This gut gets it.A few factors that I can think of were that he was a teen superhero(who was not a side-kick),he was likeable and had a great power set that was easily and transferred on paper.The spider-sense visual along with wall-crawling and webs made for a unique power-set.

The truth about how it happens is
-- First something succeeds
-- Then people make up reasons for that success.
-- Those reasons are almost always wrong and self-serving (not that I am saying it's the case at you, this isn't directed at you personally).

Spider-Man wasn't the first teenage superhero or the first to grow on-page. Fawcett's Captain Marvel whose alter-ego, Billy Batson, started out as a kid grew to teenage years as did Freddie Freeman who became (confusingly) Captain Marvel Jr [best known for being Elvis Presley's role model and childhood hero]. Likewise alongside Spider-Man you had the X-Men who were also teenage superheroes who went to school but they didn't catch on in the 1960s, or make it big until the late '70s when the cast all aged up and you had mutants come in (Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler) who are fully formed adults. If you break it down, it's hard to argue that Spider-Man being a teenager was the prime or essential reason for his success. It's not a case that teenage superheroes are inherently more successful with teenagers more than other kinds. Spider-Man's sales increased after all when he graduated high school and went to college and they also increased when he got married.

I think that the reasons for Spider-Man's success is the second part of your statement. I think the fact is that Spider-Man had this once-in-a-million unique costume design which when put together by Ditko, alongside his gimmick, made him instantly appealing. Without the red-and-blue costume, Spider-Man would most likely not have done as well as he did.

Today Spider-Man's main income comes from merchandise, toys and stickers and so on, and young children know and love Spider-Man long before they find out he's Peter Parker or what age he is, or anything else about him, being that they're too small to see the cartoons or movies or play the games.

You look at Batman and Superman, the fact is both of them have these amazing costume designs which have this simple iconography and aren't fussy and ultimately the visual element is the main thing that propels these characters.

[Spiderfan001]

The truth about how it happens is
-- First something succeeds
-- Then people make up reasons for that success.
-- Those reasons are almost always wrong and self-serving (not that I am saying it's the case at you, this isn't directed at you personally).

Spider-Man wasn't the first teenage superhero or the first to grow on-page. Fawcett's Captain Marvel whose alter-ego, Billy Batson, started out as a kid grew to teenage years as did Freddie Freeman who became (confusingly) Captain Marvel Jr [best known for being Elvis Presley's role model and childhood hero]. Likewise alongside Spider-Man you had the X-Men who were also teenage superheroes who went to school but they didn't catch on in the 1960s, or make it big until the late '70s when the cast all aged up and you had mutants come in (Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler) who are fully formed adults. If you break it down, it's hard to argue that Spider-Man being a teenager was the prime or essential reason for his success. It's not a case that teenage superheroes are inherently more successful with teenagers more than other kinds. Spider-Man's sales increased after all when he graduated high school and went to college and they also increased when he got married.

I think that the reasons for Spider-Man's success is the second part of your statement. I think the fact is that Spider-Man had this once-in-a-million unique costume design which when put together by Ditko, alongside his gimmick, made him instantly appealing. Without the red-and-blue costume, Spider-Man would most likely not have done as well as he did.

Today Spider-Man's main income comes from merchandise, toys and stickers and so on, and young children know and love Spider-Man long before they find out he's Peter Parker or what age he is, or anything else about him, being that they're too small to see the cartoons or movies or play the games.

You look at Batman and Superman, the fact is both of them have these amazing costume designs which have this simple iconography and aren't fussy and ultimately the visual element is the main thing that propels these characters.

All we can do is speculate.I do see where you are coming from.I also think that in such matters timing and luck are 2 factors that play a role.We will never truly know how it happened but I sure as hell am glad it did.Otherwise we would never have Peter Parker:-The Amazing Spider-man!

[CosmiComic]

Maybe it is unknowable. Or as Revolutionary_Jack, maybe it's after the fact justification. But I've never found Spider-Man more inherently relatable. Especially with how he manages to do all he does. In fact, because he's so popular, I find his concept a bit basic. But that's just me.

When I said short sighted, I meant more that Marvel could've built up the lore of other solo characters better, but didn't seem to. Spider-Man became the mascot and got more of the attention

[NC_Yankee]

Maybe it is unknowable. Or as Revolutionary_Jack, maybe it's after the fact justification. But I've never found Spider-Man more inherently relatable. Especially with how he manages to do all he does. In fact, because he's so popular, I find his concept a bit basic. But that's just me.

When I said short sighted, I meant more that Marvel could've built up the lore of other solo characters better, but didn't seem to. Spider-Man became the mascot and got more of the attention

I really disagree with that. There is far more to it. I made a few points earlier. But look at the supporting characters. It is simply not easy to create characters that last (especially villains). Go back to Steve Ditko. He created iconic villains that remain more then half a century after he left the book. Not only do we know them as bad guys who are a threat to Peter, but as human beings as well. Otto, Norman, Beck, Toomes, Connors, Dillion just to name a few. By comparison look at Captain America. His arch enemy is the Red Skull. But besides being a Nazi from Germany can anyone actually tell anything else about him ( without looking)? Iron Man is worse. Please tell me StarkÂ’s arch enemy? Compare that to Otto or Connors.

[CosmiComic]

I really disagree with that. There is far more to it. I made a few points earlier. But look at the supporting characters. It is simply not easy to create characters that last (especially villains). Go back to Steve Ditko. He created iconic villains that remain more then half a century after he left the book. Not only do we know them as bad guys who are a threat to Peter, but as human beings as well. Otto, Norman, Beck, Toomes, Connors, Dillion just to name a few. By comparison look at Captain America. His arch enemy is the Red Skull. But besides being a Nazi from Germany can anyone actually tell anything else about him ( without looking)? Iron Man is worse. Please tell me StarkÂ’s arch enemy? Compare that to Otto or Connors.

That's my point. They made a lot of good villains for Spider-Man but didn't make the same effort for the other heroes

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Mik;5517909]That's my point. They made a lot of good villains for Spider-Man but didn't make the same effort for the other heroes[/QUOTE
The Fantastic Four have an excellent rogues gallery. Doom, Galactus, Super Scrull and several others, so Peter is not the only one. That said, it is not Marvel’s fault that the creators of Iron Man etc did not put the effort into the comic that Ditko did with Amazing. Again it is not just a costume for Peter and his adversaries, it is putting in the effort to create a reason for their actions. For example: Otto was abused as a kid which is why Otto was more sympathetic then Norman

[CosmiComic]

[QUOTE=NC_Yankee;5517963]

That's my point. They made a lot of good villains for Spider-Man but didn't make the same effort for the other heroes[/QUOTE
The Fantastic Four have an excellent rogues gallery. Doom, Galactus, Super Scrull and several others, so Peter is not the only one. That said, it is not Marvel’s fault that the creators of Iron Man etc did not put the effort into the comic that Ditko did with Amazing. Again it is not just a costume for Peter and his adversaries, it is putting in the effort to create a reason for their actions. For example: Otto was abused as a kid which is why Otto was more sympathetic then Norman

Marvel's had a lot of editorial mandates. They could've told writers of Iron man, Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man, etc. to make effort to make more consistent rogues for those heroes.

[Huntsman Spider]

[QUOTE=NC_Yankee;5517963]

That's my point. They made a lot of good villains for Spider-Man but didn't make the same effort for the other heroes[/QUOTE
The Fantastic Four have an excellent rogues gallery. Doom, Galactus, Super Scrull and several others, so Peter is not the only one. That said, it is not Marvel’s fault that the creators of Iron Man etc did not put the effort into the comic that Ditko did with Amazing. Again it is not just a costume for Peter and his adversaries, it is putting in the effort to create a reason for their actions. For example: Otto was abused as a kid which is why Otto was more sympathetic then Norman

Funny enough, Norman Osborn was also abused as a kid by his father, who wasted the family fortune and took out his frustration and disappointment on his own son, which made him determined to rebuild that family fortune and never end up like his father, even though he later inflicted a cycle of abuse on his own son that led to that son becoming the second Green Goblin (and an outright demon from hell, calling himself Kindred, following his death as the second Green Goblin), not to mention all the horrors that he visited upon the man he wished could have been his son, Peter Parker/Spider-Man. In retrospect, both Norman and Otto would be examples of how, unless dealt with in a constructive manner, longstanding trauma and emotional scarring can in some cases lead people to inflict the same (kinds of) abuses and injustices upon others that were done to them in the past.

[PCN24454]

That's my point. They made a lot of good villains for Spider-Man but didn't make the same effort for the other heroes

I would say that they did put in the effort at first. They just don't feel like bringing them back now. Now, it's just evil counterparts galore.

[PCN24454]

Funny enough, Norman Osborn was also abused as a kid by his father, who wasted the family fortune and took out his frustration and disappointment on his own son, which made him determined to rebuild that family fortune and never end up like his father, even though he later inflicted a cycle of abuse on his own son that led to that son becoming the second Green Goblin (and an outright demon from hell, calling himself Kindred, following his death as the second Green Goblin), not to mention all the horrors that he visited upon the man he wished could have been his son, Peter Parker/Spider-Man. In retrospect, both Norman and Otto would be examples of how, unless dealt with in a constructive manner, longstanding trauma and emotional scarring can in some cases lead people to inflict the same (kinds of) abuses and injustices upon others that were done to them in the past.

I think that's just a lack of imagination on the writer's part. They're literally repeating the same plot threads again and again.

[NC_Yankee]

I would say that they did put in the NFL effort at first. They just don't feel like bringing them back now. Now, it's just evil counterparts galore.

That is correct. It is also one thing that makes Amazing work better then other comics. Take Captain America: Steve Rogers is barely relevant to the comic, so why should Johann Schmidt ( Red Skull) matter? Answer is he does not. By comparison, Peter is as important to Amazing as Spider-Man ( if not more), so with the exception of Carnage ( he is simply an evil counterpart with no socially redeeming factors), he needs adversaries that are not 100% evil. Even Norman loved his wife, and Otto Anna-Maria ( do they are not flesh and blood people, not simply evil monsters). Of course, those kind of villains requires putting an effort into writing stories that are deeper and more compelling then average comic books.

[CosmiComic]

I would say that they did put in the effort at first. They just don't feel like bringing them back now. Now, it's just evil counterparts galore.

That's too bad. Any of the main Avengers could have a good nemesis rivalling Norman Osborn or venom, but only Thor does

[Mister Mets]

That's my point. They made a lot of good villains for Spider-Man but didn't make the same effort for the other heroes

It was an extraordinary period of classic foes for Spidey, with Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Doctor Octopus, Sandman, the Lizard, Electro, Mysterio, the Green Goblin, Kraven, and Scorpion all created in a two year period. No other series can really match that.

It creates a weird contrast with other series, but there's some stuff that can't be repeated, like having a genius on the level of Ditko creating bad guys for a new character at a time when the series had a lot of single issue stories.

In comparison, Iron Man and Captain America shared an anthology title for a few years, which meant there were less new villains to encounter. Granted, a twelve issue stretch of Iron Man introduced the Crimson Dynamo, the Melter, Mandarin, Scarecrow, Black Widow, the Unicorn, Hawkeye and Mister Doll (okay, they can't all be winners).

Characters that are introduced a little bit later can already pull from other rogues galleries. Daredevil's first ten issues included encounters with Electro, Namor, the Eel and the Ox.

[CosmiComic]

It was an extraordinary period of classic foes for Spidey, with Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Doctor Octopus, Sandman, the Lizard, Electro, Mysterio, the Green Goblin, Kraven, and Scorpion all created in a two year period. No other series can really match that.

It creates a weird contrast with other series, but there's some stuff that can't be repeated, like having a genius on the level of Ditko creating bad guys for a new character at a time when the series had a lot of single issue stories.

In comparison, Iron Man and Captain America shared an anthology title for a few years, which meant there were less new villains to encounter. Granted, a twelve issue stretch of Iron Man introduced the Crimson Dynamo, the Melter, Mandarin, Scarecrow, Black Widow, the Unicorn, Hawkeye and Mister Doll (okay, they can't all be winners).

Characters that are introduced a little bit later can already pull from other rogues galleries. Daredevil's first ten issues included encounters with Electro, Namor, the Eel and the Ox.

That's true. I think the problem is those Iron Man villains weren't consistently developed over a long period of time, or in the case of Black Widow and Hawkeye, became heroes

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That's true. I think the problem is those Iron Man villains weren't consistently developed over a long period of time, or in the case of Black Widow and Hawkeye, became heroes

I think you should go over to the Marvel Comics' board because there are some Iron Man fans (yeah they exist) who would quote you chapter-and-verse about how various villains were developed over time.

In some cases, like Justin Hammer, he was interesting in the original comics but the movies failed to do a good job because they made the character into a joke mostly because RDJ's performance much like Johnny Depp's Jack Sparrow transformed the original conception of the movies into a comedy** and now everything had to be keyed to RDJ's speed. Until Thanos, there couldn't be any villain who RDJ's Tony can't quip, insult, and joke and have those quips/insults/jokes stick on them. So the character on-screen is very Ubermensch-y. In the case of Mandarin, the racist premise of the character has been impossible to overcome so the movies are giving him to Shang-Chi. And Mandarin was created to be IM's arch-enemy.

Iron Man as a character has always been hard to sell because there's nothing simple and iconic about him. He's got too much stuff going on with him. He's a billionaire weapons manufacturer. That is inherently a premise hard for universal appeal, because you have to think about stuff like Military-Industrial Complex, American Imperialism, Economy from the perspective of the Military-Industrial Complex, Imperialism, and the Economy He's also a 40-year old guy when he becomes a hero, so that again puts him out of reach. Then you have the bomb/shrapnel/device to stop the shrapnel from getting close to him (dollars to donuts, IM is the first time many kids heard the word "shrapnel"). And then you have the suit which is a garish red and gold fully body armor suit lacks a kind of tactility and theatricality and is usually drawn inconsistently (sometimes you can see eyes and even teeth but more recently you have the streamlined movie take which has these two-slit LED screens for eyes but is otherwise a big golden bucket).

So it's not a surprise that the character has been hard to cross-over to the general public until they found an actor who could hook them in on all that business, and RDJ's irreverent-comic approach helped. Pirate movies were a famous box-office deadzone for decades until Johnny Depp found a way to make Jack Sparrow work (though given his recent life issues, even that has a due date) and in the process hijack and transform a movie centered originally on Orlando Bloom as a conventional action-movie hero's journey guy, into one centered on him.

The superheroes that have caught on and taken root in culture -- the big three of Batman, Superman, Spider-Man -- work because story and design have a simplicity and poetry to it. Batman dresses as a giant bat to scare criminals and uses a giant cap and cowl to effect. That theatricality sells immediately. Superman is alien who is also Clark Kent but he wears a boss costume with a giant Yellow Shield on his chest and that's instantly iconic. Spider-Man likewise, dude gets bitten by a spider and gets powers (that's wish-fulfillment there, who hasn't wanted some chance event to come and transform their life) and his costume has a theatrical charm to it.