Latveria, B.D. (Before Doom)

[OptimusPrime114]

I have some questions to ask the hardcore Marvel fans, specifically the Fantastic Four fans. What was Latveria like before Doom showed up? What was their leadership?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I have some questions to ask the hardcore Marvel fans, specifically the Fantastic Four fans. What was Latveria like before Doom showed up? What was their leadership?

It was a corrupt racist monarchy running a tinpot dictatorship. Doom led a revolution against it, and while he became a dictator, his government is the best that there's ever been in Latverian history and a big improvement on the guy that came before or any of the guy's "successors" (like Prince Rudolph).

It's a bit like Cuba, Castro was a dictator but so was Cuba before him, under Batista, and a lot of people on the neutral side of the Cuban issue agree that Castro's government has done better than the previous guy, even if the state is still anti-democratic and single-party.

[OptimusPrime114]

It was a corrupt racist monarchy running a tinpot dictatorship. Doom led a revolution against it, and while he became a dictator, his government is the best that there's ever been in Latverian history and a big improvement on the guy that came before or any of the guy's "successors" (like Prince Rudolph).

It's a bit like Cuba, Castro was a dictator but so was Cuba before him, under Batista, and a lot of people on the neutral side of the Cuban issue agree that Castro's government has done better than the previous guy, even if the state is still anti-democratic and single-party.

Did it really used to be a dictatorship? Or was it one from Doom's perspective, but it really wasn't?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Did it really used to be a dictatorship? Or was it one from Doom's perspective, but it really wasn't?

Nope. It was an actual dictatorship, told to us from the third person narrative style of Lee and Kirby in FF ANNUAL #2. And pretty much common accepted knowledge.

Doctor Doom being a dictator and supervillain doesn't mean the government that existed before was good.

This isn't hard to grasp. Communist Russia was oppressive but that doesn't mean Tsarist Russia were the good guys. No more than Putin's Russia being terrible makes Communist Russia preferable.

[legion_quest]

Yeah, prior to Doom it was a monarchy and they treated the population like Medieval serfs and were racist against the Roma population in the country.

Doom led an uprising, declared himself ruler for life, and is generally seen as a dictator and supervillain from the outside due to his supervillain actions.

Usually, when we see the population of Latveria, they are usually depicted as really happy under Doom, that he really cares for them, and while he expects loyalty due to that protection and care, generally he's shown to be a pretty good dictator, as far as dictators can be good.

Though there are also plenty of stories that try and make Doom more of a stereotypical evil dictator who rules through fear and ruthlessness and his populace are scared of him and obey due to that rather than being happy with him.

[Iron Maiden]

Revolutionary Jack: If I may defer from your choice of Cuba (which is a good present day example) I tend to think of Latveria in terms of a smaller version of Yugoslavia under Marshall Tito's rule. Years ago one of my co-workers was a young lady who immigrated from Yugoslavia with here parents. To sum things up, she was very pro Tito. I'm probably oversimplifying things but he was considered to have a liberal version of communism towards the end of his government. Yugoslavia had split from the Soviet Union in 1948 and never became a satellite of the Soviet Nation as other countries did. After Tito's death eventually civil war ensued with the tragedy ethnic cleansing. Yugoslavia is no longer exists.


The history of Latveria is usually covered in some of the Marvel TPBs, Handbooks, etc. I have a few of those Marvel encyclopedia-style books for some of the brief fictional history of Latveria. Mostly they state that Latveria was ruled for centuries by the Haasen family. The former capital was Haasenstadt, now known as Doomstadt. The reigning monarch when Doom's parents were alive was Vladimir Vassilly Gonero Tristian Mangevi Fortunov, Baron of Haasen and Baron of Krozi. Doom has assume those last two baronies and in the early days some of Doom's underlings would address him as "Herr Baron" IIRC Dracula mocks these titles in Captain Britain and the M.I. series after Doom calls him the Little Prince. King Vladmir assumes the throne during WWII and at times was cooperative with the Nazis, probably out of fear. He had three sons, Rodolpho and Zorba who are both deceased. Rodolpho ascension to the throne was brief and thwarted by Doom. He would make a few attempts to overthrow Doom but is later killed by the Red Skull. Prince Zorba was assisted to the throne after Doom's defeat by the Fantastic Four FF#200 but he turns out to be a failed leader like his father. There is one illegitimate grandson of King Vladimir named Dimitri Fortunov and it has been speculated that Vladimir that a third unnamed son, (probably dead of unknown causes) was his father.

Doom's reign began sometime before the events of Fantastic Four annual #2 but at first he keeps himself in the shadows and a puppet ruler appears at a few press conferences.

I also picked up something on eBay some 10-15 years ago called Lands of Dr. Doom, which is a group of handbooks used for a game called TSR's Marvel Super Heroes. IIRC it is either a board game or one of those role playing games. The publication date is 1992 and the preface lists Tom Brevoort, Tom DeFalco, and Mark Gruenwald among the acknowledgments. Fellow poster and Doom fan Doomscribe first told me about this starter kit on another MB as I recall.

I'm going to quote some sections from the books History of Latveria

"Latveria has traditionally been an agricultural society ruled by the royal bloodline of the Haasen... (the) 600 year old dynasty has been interrupted only once in Latverian history, by a Gypsy's ascension to the royal throne in the 20th century. "
Further on

"The country's isolationist policies began in the late 18th century in response to broken treaties and fouled trading policies with surrounding nations; Latveria quickly became a self-sufficient and calm country, remaining that way until the middle of the 20th century. Exhorbitant spending by King Valdimir Haasen and is two royal predecessors over the course of 50 years had driven the little country to economic ruins, paving the way for an armored viper to work its way into power. These last 3 rulers had opened trade with the West, attempting to modernize their technology and regain economic stability. Crown Prince Rudolpho welcomed an armored stranger with open arms to the Latveria Court."

The events described about was written long before Brubaker's Books of Doom, which ignores the events shown in earlier comics that shows Doom coming to the court to act as scientist to the crown

Also from Domains of Doom...

Government:

"Officially described as an 'enforced monarchy' , Doom's rule is in fact a constitutional dictatorship".

We've seen a few occasions where Doom directly rules the population and he will hold sessions in the throne room for audiences with the people of Latveria. What hasn't been revealed is who takes his place during his frequent campaigns and other misadventures where he may be absent for a period of time. During the Infamous Iron Man phase he did appoint what I assume was his highest ranking general, who turned out to be corrupt and was profiteering at the expense of the people. The general was only intended to be temporary until someone else was appointed, which Doom never got around to but berated the general anyway. Doom give him his preferred nominee of a Professor Angela Kror as chancellor. This character has never made an appearance so her abilities and allegiances are unknown.

Here we see Doom holding court in Byrne's FF #258. I think this is much like how the prior regimes conducted their affairs in a small country as Latveria

[Iron Maiden]

For the curious, This is the campaign set that I was referring to. I do give it some credence for events prior to the 1990s since Marvel staff like Tom Brevoort and the late Mark Gruenwald were consulted on this. It's unknown how much they contributed, particularly with the history of Latveria. It goes on for about a page and I just quoted a few key points.



Map of Doomstadt

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah, prior to Doom it was a monarchy and they treated the population like Medieval serfs and were racist against the Roma population in the country.

Doom led an uprising, declared himself ruler for life, and is generally seen as a dictator and supervillain from the outside due to his supervillain actions.

Usually, when we see the population of Latveria, they are usually depicted as really happy under Doom, that he really cares for them, and while he expects loyalty due to that protection and care, generally he's shown to be a pretty good dictator, as far as dictators can be good.

Though there are also plenty of stories that try and make Doom more of a stereotypical evil dictator who rules through fear and ruthlessness and his populace are scared of him and obey due to that rather than being happy with him.

Both can be true. It's definitely the case that Doom's regime is oppressive to a section of his populace and because they don't toe the line they are subject to oppression and persecution. While there are also people who genuinely like and support Doom.

That's fairly realistic and expected. It's not uncommon for dictators to have real popular support or backing from the people, from real loyalty.

[OptimusPrime114]

So, what? Latveria is to be forever be ruled by Doctor Doom? There aren’t any better leaders who could lead a rebellion against Doom?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So, what? Latveria is to be forever be ruled by Doctor Doom? There aren’t any better leaders who could lead a rebellion against Doom?

I don't think you should be sentimental over Latveria as if it was a real country for one thing. These are fictional characters in a fictional setting.

The purpose of Dr. Doom and Latveria is to be a foil to the Marvel heroes and the Marvel Universe and present a moral and ideological challenge to them.

So yeah for the purposes of the story and serial continuity -- Latveria is to be forever ruled by Doctor Doom, just as Wakanda will likely always be ruled by T'Challa, Atlantis by Namor, Attilan by the Inhumans, and Asgard by Odin and his family.

Dr. Doom isn't the only anti-democratic figure in the Marvel Universe, in fact far more of them tend to be among the good guys if you think about it.

[Hypestyle]

at least now they are consistently drawn in modern clothes? In the kirby era, lol, it seems like time stopped in the Victorian era, technology wise and in terms of how people dressed. With Marvel's sliding timeline, I guess they will have had other tech developments even before Doom showed up and banned the Internet (except his own).

[Iron Maiden]

Things did get better with some artists like Maleev's and Larocca's recent rendering of the Latverians. At least they don't dress the people like Keebler elves or the little old Winemaker for old timers. Apparently a few Latverians were allowed to get higher education in other countries. At least Lucia von Bardas was educated in the U.S. IIRC. She did hold a teaching position in the U.S until the government decided to secretly get her elected Prime Minister in Latveria during one of Doom's absences.

[Ravin' Ray]

So, what? Latveria is to be forever be ruled by Doctor Doom? There aren’t any better leaders who could lead a rebellion against Doom?

We've seen one future (2099) where others took over Latveria, notably Tiger Wylde.

[legion_quest]

So, what? Latveria is to be forever be ruled by Doctor Doom? There aren’t any better leaders who could lead a rebellion against Doom?

Why would they want to?

Most people in Latveria tend to be shown as liking Doom, and when it isn't Doom in charge things tend to fall apart. In the recent Cantwell series the UN took over, let Latveria be invaded by Symkaria and entire towns were getting bombed out.

Then Doom returned, turned the tables and has now conquered Symkaria and renamed it South Latveria Province and put Kristoff in charge as Governor.

That could lead to a situation where Silver Sable could now lead an uprising against him, but she didnt seem that bothered given he got rid of Christina Karkov, who she had her own issues with